Why does God have the right to kill?
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14-06-2012, 08:53 AM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 08:48 AM)Chujutsu Wrote:  Hey guys. Don't get me wrong, but I kinda feel like refuting my friend's argument, and I'd like to know what response there could be.

After all, I was thinking at first that God is immoral for killing people. So, I now find myself asking, why is it immoral for God to kill people? My friend said that it was because God gave life to us that it is okay for him to take life.

I'd like to know what sort of response is appropriate.
Tell her this : If God gave us life, therefore he can take it away, Mother's should have the right to kill their own babies. If God is superior to Us, tell her Humans should beable to kill dogs because we are, in a general sense, superior to them.

If she is saying this and believes it, we have the right to kill kittens, because god said we have dominion over ALL of the animals.

It is not morally right, or even remotely justifiable to say that just because he gave you something, it gives him the right to take it back.

Now if she is a believer that posits no free will, tell her that by saying it is a plan, it is making human beings, and all other living things, toys for a childish person that set up the holocaust.

Press her on it. Ask her about God killing the babies, and how it was pointless, and redundant for God to make that baby, and then kill it.

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14-06-2012, 08:58 AM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
Firstly, fictional characters do fiction.

Secondly, abortion is a hotly debated issue. It seems to me that mother gives life, not some make-believe fairy dude. Obviously his argument means he supports abortion.

Thirdly, it's speakers for god putting words into fictional dude's mouth. They're just trying to justify their bullshit. People get to killing because it is an evolutionary imperative.

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14-06-2012, 09:02 AM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
Sorry, I'll go away.

I was just explaining a legitimate line of Christian thinking.

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14-06-2012, 09:08 AM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 09:02 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Sorry, I'll go away.

I was just explaining a legitimate line of Christian thinking.
Sorry KC.... I didn't mean to sound insulting....

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14-06-2012, 09:13 AM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
I have being going through the same thing on different subject. If someone really believes that it is ok for their god to kill then you cannot really refute it in a way that will make them see how absurd that is. My argument is on evolution and no matter what science I bring up they retreat to their belief. They want to believe in this celestial Kim Jong Il and will always find ways to validate it.

As KC said above "It boils down to God being sovereign". I cannot fathom how anyone could look upon the wholesale salughter of men, women, children and animals and think that act is moral no matter who/what does this. I know it's outside our bounds and we cannot comprehend why in their minds.

I would approach this from the Hitchens premise of not recognizing the right of someone/thing to own a human being. I would posit that if their god exists it still does not have the right to genocide, slavery etc. I wish I could do better for you but I'm at the point where I'm being dismissive of their beliefs and arguments and with each day I have a harder time taking the seriously.

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
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14-06-2012, 09:21 AM (This post was last modified: 14-06-2012 09:27 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
When human morality exceeds the morality of the biblical god, we are entitled to ask the simple questions like "why doesn't God know that genocide is wrong?". Why doesn't he know that flooding the world to kill man woman and child is a monstrous act? Why doesn't he know that killing the firstborn children and babies of Egypt is wrong when he has just "hardened" Pharaoh's heart to ensure the killing happens? Why doesn't he know that the ethnic cleansing of the land of Israel is wrong?

There are two possible escape clauses for God:
1. Might makes right - God gets to decide what is moral because damn it he made this ants nest and if he wants to kick it he can kick it.
2. The ends justify the means - God is aiming for a greater good, some perfect or at least optimal end state for creation.

I don't buy either.

(1) is a dud for what I hope are obvious reasons. You say that he gave life so he can take it away. I don't see anywhere I would accept that the creator owns forever his sentient creations and is right to kill and torture and maim them at a whim.

(2) is a dud primarily because the end state of this creation is obviously hell in a handbasket. Most people will die and be tortured eternally. A few will worship him forever. What trait does he look for in those that avoid eternal torture? Just belief - nothing else matters for better or worse. All this mythical god wants is a group of people who believe he exists. If that's really all he wants then the universe was a pointless farce. He can get that without the whole universe shebang.

I am unable to find any ethical justification for the recorded actions of this god.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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14-06-2012, 09:30 AM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 09:08 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(14-06-2012 09:02 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Sorry, I'll go away.

I was just explaining a legitimate line of Christian thinking.
Sorry KC.... I didn't mean to sound insulting....

No no.

It's not that. You're right. He wanted an atheist's opinion and I butted in with a Christian point of view.

You're completely justified.

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14-06-2012, 09:34 AM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
KC, does your view differ from "might means right"? If yes, then how? If no, then how is it justified?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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14-06-2012, 10:09 AM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 09:34 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  KC, does your view differ from "might means right"? If yes, then how? If no, then how is it justified?

Yes. Power does not equal authority.

God is sovereign because He is perfect.

This is akin to the God-rock paradox.

His authority isn't derived from His power; it's derived from His autonomy.

If you say "God is immoral" or "My morals are greater than God's" then you are basing God's morality on your (humanity's) standard. God isn't held to that standard because He is perfect.

A perfect being cannot be judged by imperfect beings. If this was the case, then God would not be perfect because imperfection acted upon perfection. Moreover, this would mean that God was never perfect to begin with because being perfect means that there is never a capable instance of imperfection. Ever.

So, God's morality is autonomous and His standard is only held to Himself; therefore, any moral instance done by God is according to His perfection.

This begs the question as to why God does morally abhorrent things according to human morality.

The answer to this is that God's plan was for it to happen... for whatever reason. This is also where faith comes into play because if you accept that God is perfect then His decisions and morality are perfect in accordance to His plan.

We cannot judge God's actions because we are imperfection, and like I said, imperfection cannot act upon perfection.

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14-06-2012, 10:25 AM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 10:09 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(14-06-2012 09:34 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  KC, does your view differ from "might means right"? If yes, then how? If no, then how is it justified?

Yes. Power does not equal authority.

God is sovereign because He is perfect.

This is akin to the God-rock paradox.

His authority isn't derived from His power; it's derived from His autonomy.

If you say "God is immoral" or "My morals are greater than God's" then you are basing God's morality on your (humanity's) standard. God isn't held to that standard because He is perfect.

A perfect being cannot be judged by imperfect beings. If this was the case, then God would not be perfect because imperfection acted upon perfection. Moreover, this would mean that God was never perfect to begin with because being perfect means that there is never a capable instance of imperfection. Ever.

So, God's morality is autonomous and His standard is only held to Himself; therefore, any moral instance done by God is according to His perfection.

This begs the question as to why God does morally abhorrent things according to human morality.

The answer to this is that God's plan was for it to happen... for whatever reason. This is also where faith comes into play because if you accept that God is perfect then His decisions and morality are perfect in accordance to His plan.

We cannot judge God's actions because we are imperfection, and like I said, imperfection cannot act upon perfection.
But KC, perfect is a judgement that can be made by humans... God is imperfect to me because he clearly isn't all loving.

Perfect is without belmish... In order to be perfect, he needs to be judged that way. Also he needs to be completely good.

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