Why does God have the right to kill?
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14-06-2012, 10:28 AM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 10:25 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(14-06-2012 10:09 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Yes. Power does not equal authority.

God is sovereign because He is perfect.

This is akin to the God-rock paradox.

His authority isn't derived from His power; it's derived from His autonomy.

If you say "God is immoral" or "My morals are greater than God's" then you are basing God's morality on your (humanity's) standard. God isn't held to that standard because He is perfect.

A perfect being cannot be judged by imperfect beings. If this was the case, then God would not be perfect because imperfection acted upon perfection. Moreover, this would mean that God was never perfect to begin with because being perfect means that there is never a capable instance of imperfection. Ever.

So, God's morality is autonomous and His standard is only held to Himself; therefore, any moral instance done by God is according to His perfection.

This begs the question as to why God does morally abhorrent things according to human morality.

The answer to this is that God's plan was for it to happen... for whatever reason. This is also where faith comes into play because if you accept that God is perfect then His decisions and morality are perfect in accordance to His plan.

We cannot judge God's actions because we are imperfection, and like I said, imperfection cannot act upon perfection.
But KC, perfect is a judgement that can be made by humans... God is imperfect to me because he clearly isn't all loving.

Perfect is without belmish... In order to be perfect, he needs to be judged that way. Also he needs to be completely good.

Does He?

If a being is autonomous, perfection would be defined by that being.

God's perfection is His plan. If His plan requires someone to die, and that person dies, then His plan is perfect.

Again, you are defining God according to human standards.

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14-06-2012, 10:31 AM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 10:28 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(14-06-2012 10:25 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  But KC, perfect is a judgement that can be made by humans... God is imperfect to me because he clearly isn't all loving.

Perfect is without belmish... In order to be perfect, he needs to be judged that way. Also he needs to be completely good.

Does He?

If a being is autonomous, perfection would be defined by that being.

God's perfection is His plan. If His plan requires someone to die, and that person dies, then His plan is perfect.

Again, you are defining God according to human standards.
I do not assert as fact, but I am fairly certain that being perfect does include being good.

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14-06-2012, 10:48 AM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 10:31 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(14-06-2012 10:28 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Does He?

If a being is autonomous, perfection would be defined by that being.

God's perfection is His plan. If His plan requires someone to die, and that person dies, then His plan is perfect.

Again, you are defining God according to human standards.
I do not assert as fact, but I am fairly certain that being perfect does include being good.

How can "good" be a standard if it's relative.

Things that we consider morally wrong are considered morally acceptable or even morally good in other cultures. Morals are relative.

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14-06-2012, 10:52 AM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 10:48 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(14-06-2012 10:31 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I do not assert as fact, but I am fairly certain that being perfect does include being good.

How can "good" be a standard if it's relative.

Things that we consider morally wrong are considered morally acceptable or even morally good in other cultures. Morals are relative.
Point taken...
But then perfect is subjective as well,

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14-06-2012, 11:05 AM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 10:52 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(14-06-2012 10:48 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  How can "good" be a standard if it's relative.

Things that we consider morally wrong are considered morally acceptable or even morally good in other cultures. Morals are relative.
Point taken...
But then perfect is subjective as well,

Yes, perfection is relative.

It's relative to the autonomous being.

I highlighted this thought earlier.

God's perfection is that His plan is carried out the way He chose it to be.

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14-06-2012, 11:05 AM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 10:28 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Again, you are defining God according to human standards.

What other standards are there? Fish standards? Tongue

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14-06-2012, 11:07 AM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 11:05 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(14-06-2012 10:52 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Point taken...
But then perfect is subjective as well,

Yes, perfection is relative.

It's relative to the autonomous being.

I highlighted this thought earlier.

God's perfection is that His plan is carried out the way He chose it to be.
That's your judgement. Clearly we have different ways of determining perfection.

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14-06-2012, 11:18 AM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 11:07 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(14-06-2012 11:05 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Yes, perfection is relative.

It's relative to the autonomous being.

I highlighted this thought earlier.

God's perfection is that His plan is carried out the way He chose it to be.
That's your judgement. Clearly we have different ways of determining perfection.

I guess so.

But, if a being is autonomous, how can your judgment of what is moral be applicable to Him?

Wouldn't His morals be based solely on His decisions?

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14-06-2012, 11:21 AM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 11:18 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(14-06-2012 11:07 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  That's your judgement. Clearly we have different ways of determining perfection.

I guess so.

But, if a being is autonomous, how can your judgment of what is moral be applicable to Him?

Wouldn't His morals be based solely on His decisions?
I don't think God is free from judgement.

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14-06-2012, 11:29 AM
 
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 08:27 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  It's like this:

If God is truly perfect in every way which means He is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, then He can do no wrong. If God is sovereign and morally autonomous, then His actions cannot be brought into question. His actions are done for a reason and for a purpose.

It boils down to accepting whether or not God is sovereign.

I think you've nailed this argument from a religious point of view. From a logical point of view, and from the point of view that God is the monistic fundamental consciousness, there is no more "right" in creating than in destroying. It's not better to create than to destroy. And as far as depriving a being of life, that's specious given that God is the only life there is and we are modalities of that life. For God to take a life is no different than for us to stop thinking about a character in a dream we had.

And by the way, your signature image is soooooo cute. I think it's cute enough to be an argument for the existence of God all on its own!
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