Why does God have the right to kill?
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14-06-2012, 11:29 AM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 11:21 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(14-06-2012 11:18 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I guess so.

But, if a being is autonomous, how can your judgment of what is moral be applicable to Him?

Wouldn't His morals be based solely on His decisions?
I don't think God is free from judgement.

Then He's not perfect.

There has to be an acceptance that God is perfect; if there isn't, He falls under the same standards as everyone else.

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14-06-2012, 11:31 AM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
I don't consider God to be perfect, I don't think he exists.

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14-06-2012, 11:37 AM (This post was last modified: 14-06-2012 11:43 AM by kineo.)
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
I'm not sure at this moment that I have a strong counter (or a counter at all) to KC's arguments- which are mostly in line with your friends, though his are better defined in this thread. If we allow the premise that there is a god, then it really does boil down to whether this god is sovereign (which is to say that this god is the supreme ruler possessing ultimate power) and perfect.

So first we have to accept these conditions:
We allow that there is a god in order to engage in this argument.
Then we have to allow that this god is sovereign.
Then we have to allow that this god is perfect.

To me it's already tenuous allowing the first condition- that god exists. It only becomes weaker as we proceed in the argument. Our only understanding of the Christian God comes from the Bible, which is again- tenuous in itself; in that it contains historical and scientific inaccuracies as well as dubious origin. Your imagination really is the limit when trying to come up with other perfect and sovereign gods that aren't the Christian God. But the Christian God is usually the subject of the discussion. So then we have to accept (for the sake of the argument, not to ourselves) that the Christian God is the god that exists and is sovereign and is perfect in order to engage in the discussion beyond simply denying existence.

If we accept that all of these are true then it is difficult to argue this being doesn't have the right to kill at will.

But it would still be careless, in my mind, to neglect to take this God to task. I would still ask why not set the example? Why not show perfection by way of setting the perfect example? Why make your double-standard apparent? Why not find ways to accomplish your will that do not require mass killings or rampant suffering? Surely a sovereign and perfect being can find ways to accomplish a task without the need of genocide. If the end result can only be achieved through the use of genocide, then isn't this god limited or buffered by the task? If the task requires death, then the task is more powerful than the god. So God chooses this path as opposed to an unlimited number of other possibilities. God chooses to allow famine, plague, genocide, to slay through a flood all of humanity but a scant few (if the person arguing is a Biblical literalist). If God is sovereign, then these are God's solutions and a result of His creation. Surely if there is one "best" solution, then God is again limited by the situation. He couldn't have chosen another solution and that solution be the "best" solution?

Admittedly, if this god is sovereign, then our definitions for "good" and "bad" will not likely meet His. They don't even match from between nations and the definitions haven't been consistent throughout history. Our definitions for these words are very subjective and they always will be. Just like our morality.

And still, I am repulsed by the idea of the Christian God, whether or not my judgement against His actions would matter (if we allowed the conditions, then my judgement would be irrelevant, even to me in the long run).

I'm sure my logic isn't flawless. But when it comes down to it, it seems to me that it is just more likely that the first condition is not true. And even if it is, then the following two conditions are likely not true. Yet even if they are, the fourth seems almost definitely false (that the existing god is the Christian God). The reasons why I do not take those conditions to be true are for another thread, though.
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14-06-2012, 11:55 AM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 11:31 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I don't consider God to be perfect, I don't think he exists.

Which is why it's hard for an atheist to answer the question.

You cannot engage in a theistic discussion without adopting a theistic mindset for the debate.

That's why I think the OP and his friend are at an impasse.

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14-06-2012, 12:22 PM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
It could also be argued that many of the deaths have been caused by humans. Joshua killed many on the orders of God, but He did not kill himself. A few of the actual God caused deaths were the result of people ignoring God's rules. Occaisionally God would kill someone to make a point, probably because he wanted people to take that message seriously.

So God has the right to order killings and to make points regarding certain things like disobedience.

When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.

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14-06-2012, 12:28 PM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 12:22 PM)Xinoftruden Wrote:  It could also be argued that many of the deaths have been caused by humans. Joshua killed many on the orders of God, but He did not kill himself. A few of the actual God caused deaths were the result of people ignoring God's rules. Occaisionally God would kill someone to make a point, probably because he wanted people to take that message seriously.

So God has the right to order killings and to make points regarding certain things like disobedience.
Right, because the newborns killed by Noah's Flood (which God caused) and the babies slaughtered on God's command were ignoring his rules.

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14-06-2012, 12:32 PM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 12:28 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(14-06-2012 12:22 PM)Xinoftruden Wrote:  It could also be argued that many of the deaths have been caused by humans. Joshua killed many on the orders of God, but He did not kill himself. A few of the actual God caused deaths were the result of people ignoring God's rules. Occaisionally God would kill someone to make a point, probably because he wanted people to take that message seriously.

So God has the right to order killings and to make points regarding certain things like disobedience.
Right, because the newborns killed by Noah's Flood and the ones slaughtered on God's command were ignoring God's rules.

well... yeah, there is something about how they had grown wicke in the eyes of God and assuming that God had told Adam and Eve to obey him and to do what he asked, I think that he gave them some set of rules that the later inhabitants started to disobey.

When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.

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14-06-2012, 12:45 PM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 12:32 PM)Xinoftruden Wrote:  
(14-06-2012 12:28 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Right, because the newborns killed by Noah's Flood and the ones slaughtered on God's command were ignoring God's rules.

well... yeah, there is something about how they had grown wicke in the eyes of God and assuming that God had told Adam and Eve to obey him and to do what he asked, I think that he gave them some set of rules that the later inhabitants started to disobey.
According to modern theologists, the story of Adam and Eve is a figurative one. And even if it happened as it's written, how does it change anything at the fact that God killed and ordered his believers to kill innocent babies in the Bible? How can babies disobey God's law when all they can do is cry, piss and shit themselves?

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14-06-2012, 12:53 PM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 12:45 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(14-06-2012 12:32 PM)Xinoftruden Wrote:  well... yeah, there is something about how they had grown wicke in the eyes of God and assuming that God had told Adam and Eve to obey him and to do what he asked, I think that he gave them some set of rules that the later inhabitants started to disobey.
According to modern theologists, the story of Adam and Eve is a figurative one. And even if it happened as it's written, how does it change anything at the fact that God killed and ordered his believers to kill innocent babies in the Bible? How can babies disobey God's law when all they can do is cry, piss and shit themselves?


I made a misplay... oops

ok so I'll try it again. God killed all of the "wicked" people because they were probably doing things that would eventually wipe them out. So God decided to fastforward this process and wipe them out there and then rather than having to watch his creations slowly kill themselves off slowly (as for now maybe He sees something in us that our predessors did not have)

Another thing, if we are going to rule out Adam and Eve then I can say that the story of Noah's ark never happened as modern science has ruled it out; the murders of which you speak never happened.

When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.

You cannot successfully determine beforehand which side of the bread to butter.
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14-06-2012, 01:04 PM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
Quote:I made a misplay... oops

ok so I'll try it again. God killed all of the "wicked" people because they were probably doing things that would eventually wipe them out. So God decided to fastforward this process and wipe them out there and then rather than having to watch his creations slowly kill themselves off slowly (as for now maybe He sees something in us that our predessors did not have)
If God is omnipotent, he could've just spared the innocent newborns and still killed the "wicked people".

(14-06-2012 12:53 PM)Xinoftruden Wrote:  Another thing, if we are going to rule out Adam and Eve then I can say that the story of Noah's ark never happened as modern science has ruled it out; the murders of which you speak never happened.
I was talking about modern theology, not modern science. The latter one has ruled out every supernatural event described in the Bible, including the NT (resurrection of Jesus, miraculous healings, etc.). If we're talking about the scientific view on religion, then there is no God to begin with who could've done anything.

Granted, it's likely that modern theologists also claim that the story of Noah's ark is a figurative one, but I still wasn't talking about science.

And even if the Flood never happened, there are still the killings of newborns ordered by God.

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