Why does God have the right to kill?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
14-06-2012, 01:15 PM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 08:22 AM)Chujutsu Wrote:  I was debating with a friend, and she told me that God has the right to kill since he was the one who gave life, and so, he can take away life.

I've been thinking that God had been immoral since he killed so many people when he got Joshua to lead an army to take the Promised Land. My friend's argument makes sense to me, but I'd like to ask you guys for your thoughts as well.
Because It's God, that's why.

Seriously

Assuming there is an all powerful entity that made and controls the universe and its physical laws, It also controls morality. If It wants to give or take life, It does so. It's not about right's, it just reality. You might as well argue whether It has a right to create gravity, light, energy, etc.

Now, assuming that's true, my attitude is if God wants someone dead, It will have to do the dirty deed Itself. I'm not pulling the trigger for It and It's not such a pathetic vagina that It has to subcontract out a little murder to a goon squad.

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

- Joel Chastnoff, The 188th Crybaby Brigade
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-06-2012, 01:34 PM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 01:04 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
Quote:I made a misplay... oops

ok so I'll try it again. God killed all of the "wicked" people because they were probably doing things that would eventually wipe them out. So God decided to fastforward this process and wipe them out there and then rather than having to watch his creations slowly kill themselves off slowly (as for now maybe He sees something in us that our predessors did not have)
If God is omnipotent, he could've just spared the innocent newborns and still killed the "wicked people".

(14-06-2012 12:53 PM)Xinoftruden Wrote:  Another thing, if we are going to rule out Adam and Eve then I can say that the story of Noah's ark never happened as modern science has ruled it out; the murders of which you speak never happened.
I was talking about modern theology, not modern science. The latter one has ruled out every supernatural event described in the Bible, including the NT (resurrection of Jesus, miraculous healings, etc.). If we're talking about the scientific view on religion, then there is no God to begin with who could've done anything.

Granted, it's likely that modern theologists also claim that the story of Noah's ark is a figurative one, but I still wasn't talking about science.

And even if the Flood never happened, there are still the killings of newborns ordered by God.

I already said that ordering is fine. If God ordered someone to kill me though, I would fight back.

Also for the science thing. One of the things science is proud of is never being able to prove something completely. This means that there is a sliver, a very tiny tiny sliver, of a chance that I may be right and well God is known to not be the most sane of beings. I'll take my trillion to one chance of being right happily. (I know this seems idiotic, I get that. however my God is clearly wearing his underpants on his head so His processes do not make that much sense)

When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.

You cannot successfully determine beforehand which side of the bread to butter.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-06-2012, 01:39 PM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 01:34 PM)Xinoftruden Wrote:  
(14-06-2012 01:04 PM)Vosur Wrote:  If God is omnipotent, he could've just spared the innocent newborns and still killed the "wicked people".

I was talking about modern theology, not modern science. The latter one has ruled out every supernatural event described in the Bible, including the NT (resurrection of Jesus, miraculous healings, etc.). If we're talking about the scientific view on religion, then there is no God to begin with who could've done anything.

Granted, it's likely that modern theologists also claim that the story of Noah's ark is a figurative one, but I still wasn't talking about science.

And even if the Flood never happened, there are still the killings of newborns ordered by God.

I already said that ordering is fine. If God ordered someone to kill me though, I would fight back.

Assuming you have the free will to do so. There is some contention on that notion.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-06-2012, 01:59 PM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 01:34 PM)Xinoftruden Wrote:  I already said that ordering is fine. If God ordered someone to kill me though, I would fight back.
Why is that?

Quote:Also for the science thing. One of the things science is proud of is never being able to prove something completely. This means that there is a sliver, a very tiny tiny sliver, of a chance that I may be right and well God is known to not be the most sane of beings. I'll take my trillion to one chance of being right happily. (I know this seems idiotic, I get that. however my God is clearly wearing his underpants on his head so His processes do not make that much sense)
That's correct, just like there's a sliver, a very tiny sliver of a chance that fairies, Big Foot, Nessie, aliens and the likes of them exist. The absence of even the smallest piece of evidence for their existence is the reason why the majority of sane people does not even bother to consider that they exist. The same applies for any kind of God, although in this case, atheists/agnostics are the minority.

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-06-2012, 02:09 PM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 01:59 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(14-06-2012 01:34 PM)Xinoftruden Wrote:  I already said that ordering is fine. If God ordered someone to kill me though, I would fight back.
Why is that?

Quote:Also for the science thing. One of the things science is proud of is never being able to prove something completely. This means that there is a sliver, a very tiny tiny sliver, of a chance that I may be right and well God is known to not be the most sane of beings. I'll take my trillion to one chance of being right happily. (I know this seems
idiotic, I get that. however my God is clearly wearing his underpants on his head so His processes do not make that much sense)

That's correct, just like there's also a sliver, a very tiny sliver of a chance that fairies, Big Foot, Nessie, aliens and the likes of them exist. The absence of even the smallest piece of evidence for the existence for any of them is the reason why the majority of sane people does not even bother to consider that they exist. The same applies for any kind of God, although in this case, atheists/agnostics are the minority.

If God sent someone to kill me and I fought back and won then well I'm still alive. If I lose then I'm in heaven.

I never claimed to be completely sane but I do dress properly.

If religion was a sign of insanity the wards would be overflowing. I know that its like having an imaginary friend, but the people who do kill in the name of their God are generally viewed as extremists, they do not represent the majority.

I also do not like assocsiating with other christians as much. I know relatively few (which may be a good thing), but the ones I do know act in a very different way than what they should. They preach acceptance abd then spew hatred at those who do not share their beliefs. ( I talked with them yesterday about a couple of topics). seriously people who claim to they believe in God do not do half the things that entails. I dont either but I also do not hate on others. That kind of thing makes me angry.

If my beliefs seem confusing it is because I have spent a lot of time thinking about each of these and gone over them over and over again many times.

When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.

You cannot successfully determine beforehand which side of the bread to butter.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-06-2012, 03:43 PM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 11:55 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I'm trying to get all this straight in my mind so bear with me. God has the right to kill because he is perfect and cannot be judged. There are christians all over the world, immersed in so many different cultures, and all these different cultures have different standards of perfection. Speaking human to human, we are all attracted to the things we perceive as perfection. For some it's symetry in the body, for others it's thighs, and still others it's lips. Now, if we are all created in his (and I refuse to capitalize the pronoun unless it starts a sentence) image, and we all have different views of perfection, then somewhere in the world this makes him imperfect in the eyes of man. Therefore, he is imperfect and does not have the right to kill. Not that I believe in him anyway, but just saying.
(14-06-2012 11:31 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I don't consider God to be perfect, I don't think he exists.

Which is why it's hard for an atheist to answer the question.

You cannot engage in a theistic discussion without adopting a theistic mindset for the debate.

That's why I think the OP and his friend are at an impasse.

Don't Panic...and carry a towel. Thumbsup ...Douglas Adams, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes aunts1384's post
14-06-2012, 04:27 PM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
You give God the right to kill.
You give God the right to kill when you choose to acknowledge existence of God.

You give God power.

When you give relevance to something outside of you, you give that your power.


And you give it power over you.
And it tells you... whatever it has to, to keep that power.

Things that don't exist, don't have rights.
Humans have rights. You are a Human.


Humans need to get their shit together.

God is irrelevant.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like kim's post
14-06-2012, 05:37 PM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
(14-06-2012 04:27 PM)kim Wrote:  You give God the right to kill.
You give God the right to kill when you choose to acknowledge existence of God.

You give God power.

When you give relevance to something outside of you, you give that your power.


And you give it power over you.
And it tells you... whatever it has to, to keep that power.

Things that don't exist, don't have rights.
Humans have rights. You are a Human.


Humans need to get their shit together.

God is irrelevant.

Depending on your viewpoint God is very relevant. I don't think that God directly interferes in life anymore. He probably does not even pay attention to our planet and has moved on to greater things (face it, the best He could do is humanity. Really?). However this does not mean that God does not exist. Its just means that he is not here. We are like that old comic book collection in the attic, waiting for our chance to be dusted off.
However again God's love is extended to everyone anyway, regardless of anything. So belief is not truly mandatory.

When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.

You cannot successfully determine beforehand which side of the bread to butter.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-06-2012, 07:35 PM
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
Hey guys, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'll still have to digest all of this.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-06-2012, 06:23 AM (This post was last modified: 15-06-2012 06:26 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: Why does God have the right to kill?
There's a strongly circular presupposition in this argument:
Rule 1: We assume that god has properties such that he is perfect
Rule 2: When we encounter apparent conflicts between god's perfection and reality, see rule 1.
We can conclude from these assumptions that the ends justify the means. Whatever God's plan is is perfect, because God is perfect. Therefore, there must be a reason for it all.

The thing is there is no reason to make that first assumption. God could exist without being perfect. God could not exist at all. The existence of apparent conflicts between perfection and reality are every reason to question the perfection of god and indeed the existence of God.

If we take away the assumption of a perfect god then we are left with a number of logical alternatives:
1. We misunderstand when we see things that are apparent deviations from perfection. Indeed they match perfection perfectly, but we don't have the insight required to understand perfection.
2. There really are deviations from perfection, but they will be worked out in the long term for a perfect end state that the perfect God has worked out and the end state justifies the imperfection that exists along the way.
3. God is imperfect, perhaps quick to anger. Perhaps jealous. Perhaps a God that craves worship alone and doesn't care about the affairs of man beyond this. Perhaps he does care but just didn't have the knowledge, didn't have the foresight, or didn't have the power to prevent the imperfection. Perhaps we're just a try out for the "real" perfect universe to come.
4. God doesn't exist at all.

Any of these outcomes could explain the difference we see between perfection and reality. Coming back to the original post, any of these would also explain the apparent right of God to kill. Perhaps he has the right and it is perfect in a way we can't conceive. Perhaps he has the right in order to bring about his perfect end state. Perhaps he doesn't have the right and just does it anyway. Perhaps he doesn't exist, and it was people killing people and nature killing people all along in the first place.

I for one think that we cannot take the perfection of God as an assumption in our reasoning. I think there is no justification for it in reality or in scripture. Why should we ascribe all of these properties to God? Why should we put him in a box like that, should he exist at all? To me the perfection of God should be a question that is contingent on observed reality, and even if he has delivered a message to us we should be able to question whether his say so in its own right justifies an assumption of perfection.

Even if we have the message from God in our hands, I suggest the four possibilities should remain open to us: That the message is indeed from a perfect god and we live in a perfect world, that the message is from a perfect god and we live in a temporarily imperfect world, that the message is from an imperfect god, or that the message is from men after all.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Hafnof's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: