Why does Joseph have two daddies?
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01-08-2013, 06:19 PM
Tongue Why does Joseph have two daddies?
Why does Joseph have two daddys?: A second look at the genealogy of Jesus
From the NIV 1984

Mat 1:16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Luke 3:23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of...etc.

Looking at the genealogy of Jesus it is difficult to reconcile the differences. Working backward from Jesus, the accounts of Matthew and Luke diverge at Jesus' grandfather, Joseph's father (Jacob according to Matthew, Heli according to Luke). Furthermore, the names do not agree for another eight and seventeen generations respectively. Considering these differences, I've found it hard to see how both accounts could be true simultaneously. But, in an attempt to be skeptical of my own "dogma", I tried reconsidering my thinking. I read the names again and again, comparing their differences and similarities. Lo and behold (HALLELUJAH!) it came to me! I've been reading them BACKWARDS! If we read them forwards, ALL of the discrepancies disappear!

Consider: Both accounts converge on Zerubbabel. If we move forward from this point we find that Zerubbabel has two sons, Abuid (Matthew) and Rhesa (Luke). As we can see, this is not a contradiction. A man can have two sons. Following the names further lead us to Jacob ( Matthew ) and Heli ( Luke), both direct descendants of Zerubbabel. Also not contradictory. Both gospels together then identify Jacob and Heli as the fathers of Joseph. That's right! I said it. JOSEPH had TWO DADDIES! If Joseph was the son of a homosexual male couple ("With God anything is possible." See: virgin birth, ressurection, transubstantiation, etc.) it would explain a dual male parental claim. It also might explain why Jesus, himself, NEVER mentions homosexuality in ANY gospel account. Discrepancies? WHAT discrepancies? Furthermore, due to their direct lineage to the same ancestor, they are also COUSINS! Not only that, Jacob's husband was NINE GENERATIONS YOUNGER! Scandalous even by today's standards.

BUT WAIT!... there's more. The reconciliation of Jesus' genealogical discrepancies is complete and total.

Sheltiel, the father of Zerubbabel in both accounts, is also listed as having two fathers, Jeconiah (Matthew) and Neri ( Luke), also direct descendants of a common ancestor, David, from whom they are separated by fourteen and twenty generations respectively. In other words, Sheltiel had two daddies who were also homosexual kissing cousins with a scandalous age difference.

Following Jesus' ancestry further reveals that Matthew and Luke are in complete agreement about every name from David to Abraham. Beyond this Luke traces Jesus back to Adam and Matthew is silent, presumably making the assumption that it is self evident.

Alternatively, both genealogies could be simultaneously true if Joseph's mommy (as well as Sheltiel's) had PLURAL HUSBANDS! (That frisky little minx.) Discrepancies-schmepancies! But, either way, kissing cousins or plural husbands (still cousins), Jesus' family history shows that " keepin' it in the family" is a well established and time honored Judeo-Christian tradition (Also see: Abraham). You can't make this shit up! IT'S IN THE BIBLE!

Conclusion: Deconstructing a history or narrative in reverse order can easily lead to discontinuities, contradictions, and discrepancies. If read in forward order, as any story should be, many differences resolve themselves, as long as we don't apply our own dogma or suppositions to what the author or authors are trying to say. Secondly, it is possible to take wildly differing accounts and reconcile them in a way that eliminates all discrepancies. Unfortunately, doing so requires us to draw conclusions which were not intended by either author, and are often more ridiculous than the original proposition. When two authors tell greatly differing accounts of the same event, it may be a good indication that they disagree no matter how much we might wish it otherwise.

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01-08-2013, 08:06 PM
RE: Why does Joseph have two daddies?
Count the generations in Matthew.
Count the generations in Luke.
The end.

Jebus was on the Maury Povich show. At the end of Chapter 1 (Matthew- after ALL that)
"Joseph was NOT the father".

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02-08-2013, 10:32 AM
RE: Why does Joseph have two daddies?
Matthew tells the story of Jesus' birth from Joseph's point of view. It begins by giving Joseph's genealogy and then tells how he learned Mary was pregnant.

Luke tells of the birth from Mary's point of view. He tells how she learned she would have a baby. The genealogy is hers and Joseph was actually the son-in-law of Heli.

You can find more information about this here:

http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/matth...and-luke-3

God's invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.
Romans 1:20 ESV

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02-08-2013, 01:29 PM (This post was last modified: 02-08-2013 02:52 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why does Joseph have two daddies?
(02-08-2013 10:32 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Matthew tells the story of Jesus' birth from Joseph's point of view. It begins by giving Joseph's genealogy and then tells how he learned Mary was pregnant.

Luke tells of the birth from Mary's point of view. He tells how she learned she would have a baby. The genealogy is hers and Joseph was actually the son-in-law of Heli.

You can find more information about this here:

http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/matth...and-luke-3

So let me get this straight. One set of family members ALL, (each and every one) have a life expectancy twice what the other family line did ?
Neither author said they "started from Adam". Just rationalization nonsense, as even with that (lame explanation), there are HUGE errors.
Tell me ONE other Jewish genealogy, (EVER... ever in all of history), that does the genealogy through the mother's line.

"Thus by both His mother and His earthly father, Jesus had a right to the throne of Israel."
Wrong.
No King of Isra-El was EVER given the throne through the mother.
Ever.
And thanks for the link. He admits it makes no sense.
"I find it difficult to accept that those who collected the books of the New Testament, and who believed it was inerrant, were unaware of this blatant differentiation in genealogies."

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02-08-2013, 02:30 PM
RE: Why does Joseph have two daddies?
(02-08-2013 10:32 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Matthew tells the story of Jesus' birth from Joseph's point of view. It begins by giving Joseph's genealogy and then tells how he learned Mary was pregnant.

Luke tells of the birth from Mary's point of view. He tells how she learned she would have a baby. The genealogy is hers and Joseph was actually the son-in-law of Heli.

You can find more information about this here:

http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/matth...and-luke-3


Joachim and Ann were Mary's parents:http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim
But, nice try.
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02-08-2013, 02:52 PM
RE: Why does Joseph have two daddies?
(02-08-2013 01:29 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(02-08-2013 10:32 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Matthew tells the story of Jesus' birth from Joseph's point of view. It begins by giving Joseph's genealogy and then tells how he learned Mary was pregnant.

Luke tells of the birth from Mary's point of view. He tells how she learned she would have a baby. The genealogy is hers and Joseph was actually the son-in-law of Heli.

You can find more information about this here:

http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/matth...and-luke-3

So let me get this straight. One set of family members ALL, (each and every one) have a life expectancy twice what the other family line did ?

Excellent point. There are fifteen more names in the supposed "geneaology of Mary". If each of those males sired his son at age ten that would be 150 years minimum separating Joseph and Mary's generation.
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02-08-2013, 03:07 PM
RE: Why does Joseph have two daddies?
(02-08-2013 01:29 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(02-08-2013 10:32 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Matthew tells the story of Jesus' birth from Joseph's point of view. It begins by giving Joseph's genealogy and then tells how he learned Mary was pregnant.

Luke tells of the birth from Mary's point of view. He tells how she learned she would have a baby. The genealogy is hers and Joseph was actually the son-in-law of Heli.

You can find more information about this here:

http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/matth...and-luke-3

So let me get this straight. One set of family members ALL, (each and every one) have a life expectancy twice what the other family line did ?

Excellent point. There are fifteen more names in the supposed "geneaology of Mary". If each of those males sired his son at age ten that would be 150 years minimum separating Joseph and Mary's generation.
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03-08-2013, 08:57 AM
RE: Why does Joseph have two daddies?
(02-08-2013 10:32 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Matthew tells the story of Jesus' birth from Joseph's point of view. It begins by giving Joseph's genealogy and then tells how he learned Mary was pregnant.

Luke tells of the birth from Mary's point of view. He tells how she learned she would have a baby. The genealogy is hers and Joseph was actually the son-in-law of Heli.

You can find more information about this here:

http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/matth...and-luke-3

That is the standard apologetic, but the standard apologetic is dishonest.

The text clearly says Joseph in both cases.

Also, having a genealogy of Joseph is far more important theologically than from Mary, because the Messiah must be patrilineally descended from King David. In so far as Joseph was married to Mary at the time, his alleged lack of genetic contribution is not legally relevant for tribal purposes.

Others here have already picked holes in the gospel story, but what about an explicit real explanation?

Real explanation: The two gospel writers independently fabricated spurious genealogies to force the false (or at least unprovable) conclusion that Jesus was a partilinieal descendant of King David.

Christianity is not merely "historically inaccurate", it is founded on lies.

Nonsense is nonsense, but the history of nonsense is a very important science.
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03-08-2013, 10:28 AM
RE: Why does Joseph have two daddies?
(02-08-2013 02:30 PM)NoSkyDaddy Wrote:  Joachim and Ann were Mary's parents:http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim
But, nice try.

If you want to find out about Mary you should go to the Bible, not Wikipedia.

Quote: There are fifteen more names in the supposed "geneaology of Mary". If each of those males sired his son at age ten that would be 150 years minimum separating Joseph and Mary's generation.

Mary's genealogy goes back to Adam while Joseph's only goes back to Abraham. Even if both genealogies went back to the same starting point there wouldn't necessarily be the same number of generations in each one because not all the men named were the same age when their sons were born.

God's invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.
Romans 1:20 ESV

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04-08-2013, 02:33 AM
RE: Why does Joseph have two daddies?
theophilus Wrote:If you want to find out about Mary you should go to the Bible, not Wikipedia.
If you're using the Bible as your source, list chapter and verse that DIRECTLY references Heli as Mary's father. As for my wiki source, try these: http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/libr...scene.html

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/l...2013-07-26

http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=22

http://ocarm.org/en/content/liturgy/st-j...rs-order-m

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topi...nd-Joachim

Not that any of this matters as neither the Bible or the Apocrypha are credible historical documents. We might as well argue which Silver Surfer is the REAL Silver Surfer.


theophilis Wrote:Mary's genealogy goes back to Adam while Joseph's only goes back to Abraham. Even if both genealogies went back to the same starting point there wouldn't necessarily be the same number of generations in each one because not all the men named were the same age when their sons were born.
Sorry for not being specific enough. There are fifteen extra names between David and Joseph. Each one being the next man's father would have to reach reproductive age before siring that child, adding a significant number of years between Mary and Joseph, assuming Luke is Mary's line, which you have yet to demonstrate. Once again, chapter and verse please.
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