Why does everyone seem to miss this?
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26-07-2013, 12:35 PM
Why does everyone seem to miss this?
I saw a theist arguing with someone the other day and they had reverted to the classic "there are no atheists in foxholes" argument. The other person did the classic atheist thing and started arguing back that there are.

Why do we do this? I'm not saying that the "yes there are" point isn't a valid counter-point but, to me, it doesn't seem the best criticism (after all, I can imagine some atheists do "pray" in stressful situations, not because they've developed belief but because someone who is desperate enough will try literally anything, even if they have no faith it will work). I still haven't seen anyone counter with the criticism that first springs to my mind; how fucking retarded is it to try and assert the existence of God by pointing out that people are generally more receptive to the idea when they are at their most illogical. That's the thing with the whole "atheists in foxholes" argument, it really does seem to be an argument against the existence of a deity. By pointing out that people are more likely to believe when they are desperate and irrational they are showing how invalid that belief is.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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26-07-2013, 12:38 PM
RE: Why does everyone seem to miss this?
(26-07-2013 12:35 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  I saw a theist arguing with someone the other day and they had reverted to the classic "there are no atheists in foxholes" argument. The other person did the classic atheist thing and started arguing back that there are.

Why do we do this? I'm not saying that the "yes there are" point isn't a valid counter-point but, to me, it doesn't seem the best criticism (after all, I can imagine some atheists do "pray" in stressful situations, not because they've developed belief but because someone who is desperate enough will try literally anything, even if they have no faith it will work). I still haven't seen anyone counter with the criticism that first springs to my mind; how fucking retarded is it to try and assert the existence of God by pointing out that people are generally more receptive to the idea when they are at their most illogical. That's the thing with the whole "atheists in foxholes" argument, it really does seem to be an argument against the existence of a deity. By pointing out that people are more likely to believe when they are desperate and irrational they are showing how invalid that belief is.

You make an insightful argument. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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26-07-2013, 12:47 PM
RE: Why does everyone seem to miss this?
I think what they would say (and the podcast Seth had with his old boss where he pretty much states this ver batim) that your true beliefs would come out under stress, duress, or when you are "at your worst" (as Seth's boss said multiple times on that podcast). So, they take it as evidence that if someone says they don't believe, but pray when under stress (or meditate or whatever), that it is because they secretly believe.

Evolve
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26-07-2013, 12:48 PM
RE: Why does everyone seem to miss this?
That is the argument used against me in one of the threads on christianforums.com

I should post that comment and reply since he felt he could predict who I was and why I was there. Drinking Beverage moron.

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26-07-2013, 01:14 PM
RE: Why does everyone seem to miss this?
You know who don't go running to God when the shitstorm hits the muthafuckin' fan? Atheists. Who do I want with me in the foxhole when the shitstorm hits the muthafuckin' fan? The fraidy cat who starts diddling his rosary and praying he don't die or Pat fucking Tillman. No brainer.

[Image: tillman1.jpg][Image: tillman2.jpg]

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26-07-2013, 02:06 PM
RE: Why does everyone seem to miss this?
When you're out in combat and you see countless soldiers praying to their various gods and then moments later their bodies dead on the battlefield, all you have left is atheists in foxholes.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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26-07-2013, 02:14 PM
RE: Why does everyone seem to miss this?
(26-07-2013 01:14 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You know who don't go running to God when the shitstorm hits the muthafuckin' fan? Atheists. Who do I want with me in the foxhole when the shitstorm hits the muthafuckin' fan? The fraidy cat who starts diddling his rosary and praying he don't die or Pat fucking Tillman. No brainer.

[Image: tillman1.jpg][Image: tillman2.jpg]

That dude looks like he could beat the shit out of you by just looking at you.

Official ordained minister of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Please pm me with prayer requests to his noodly goodness. Remember, he boiled for your sins and loves you. Carbo Diem! RAmen.
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26-07-2013, 02:26 PM
RE: Why does everyone seem to miss this?
(26-07-2013 02:14 PM)Logisch Wrote:  
(26-07-2013 01:14 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You know who don't go running to God when the shitstorm hits the muthafuckin' fan? Atheists. Who do I want with me in the foxhole when the shitstorm hits the muthafuckin' fan? The fraidy cat who starts diddling his rosary and praying he don't die or Pat fucking Tillman. No brainer.

[Image: tillman1.jpg][Image: tillman2.jpg]

That dude looks like he could beat the shit out of you by just looking at you.

Why yes, yes he could. ... Still can for that matter.




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26-07-2013, 02:56 PM
RE: Why does everyone seem to miss this?
(26-07-2013 02:06 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  When you're out in combat and you see countless soldiers praying to their various gods and then moments later their bodies dead on the battlefield, all you have left is atheists in foxholes.

It's funny -- I had a teacher once who served in Korea who said something very similar to that. He was an atheist.

He said war solidified his feeling god couldn't exist.


Wind's in the east, a mist coming in
Like something is brewing and about to begin
Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


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26-07-2013, 03:46 PM
RE: Why does everyone seem to miss this?
The whole thing about the "no atheists in foxholes" argument is that it isn't an argument for their gods or goddesses at all. It is a diversion from the real subject of the existence of deities and instead focuses on the human nature. It is human nature in pretty much everyone to look to metaphysical things when there is no way out and all seems lost. In the heat of the moment, people will exhaust every option they have in search of an answer. This, though, has nothing to do in a secret belief the soldier took to the battlefield with them. All it means is that in times of desperation people will cling to anything and everything. Then, when you get through the ordeal you have faced, it is very much like Rahn127 said:

(26-07-2013 02:06 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  When you're out in combat and you see countless soldiers praying to their various gods and then moments later their bodies dead on the battlefield, all you have left is atheists in foxholes.

You realize there is no such thing as a loving god that is always there for you. Sometimes it can hit you like a ton of bricks when you realize you are alone in this world and that your god in heaven was just an imaginary friend the whole time.

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