Why does he always need to be eternal
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26-08-2014, 12:08 PM
RE: Why does he always need to be eternal
(26-08-2014 11:45 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(26-08-2014 11:35 AM)phil.a Wrote:  If god is eternal - the question of where god came from does not arise ;-)
True enough, but it is only substituted with another question - how can anything be eternal and have no beginning? This is one thing that bugs me. Theists who believe their god is eternal think that dismisses the issue entirely.

Well, I'd agree that noTHING can be eternal, all space-time entities have a beginning and an end.

But if "god" is not a thing, as in not an entity in space-time, then again - that problem does not arise. And "god" would not be in space-time, since "he" must have existed before space and time to have created it.

Related philosophical concepts framed in less theistic terms: The Unmanifest and The Absolute.

Phil
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26-08-2014, 12:12 PM
RE: Why does he always need to be eternal
(26-08-2014 11:47 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(26-08-2014 11:45 AM)Impulse Wrote:  True enough, but it is only substituted with another question - how can anything be eternal and have no beginning? This is one thing that bugs me. Theists who believe their god is eternal think that dismisses the issue entirely.

Eternal or timeless?

Edit:

Eternal = <-------------------->
Timeless = |------------------->

Good point, "timeless" seems more descriptive of the absolute.

Would you say that "eternal" is time witnessed from timelessness, e.g. the "eternal Now"?

Phil
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26-08-2014, 12:39 PM
RE: Why does he always need to be eternal
This is kinda like arguing whether the invisible unicorn is really pink or more of a mauve. Or maybe peach.

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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26-08-2014, 12:42 PM (This post was last modified: 26-08-2014 12:49 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why does he always need to be eternal
(26-08-2014 11:53 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Eternal doesn't need a beginning. If it does, it becomes timeless; therefore, changing the definition of eternal.

Eternal is infinite from both beginning to end. Timeless is infinite in end only; it has a beginning.

Nope. In Theology "eternal" does not mean "infinite time". It means "absense of a temporal dimension". No beginnings and no ends. Just "is". The trouble is, then, every believer corrupts their own (asserted) timelessness with temporal concepts.

If a deity is timeless, then "creation" is a corruption, and is a temporal *marker*. Can't have it both ways. It's one of the main reasons there is is no coherent way to talk about a gawd.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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26-08-2014, 01:16 PM
RE: Why does he always need to be eternal
(26-08-2014 12:42 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(26-08-2014 11:53 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Eternal doesn't need a beginning. If it does, it becomes timeless; therefore, changing the definition of eternal.

Eternal is infinite from both beginning to end. Timeless is infinite in end only; it has a beginning.

Nope. In Theology "eternal" does not mean "infinite time". It means "absense of a temporal dimension". No beginnings and no ends. Just "is". The trouble is, then, every believer corrupts their own (asserted) timelessness with temporal concepts.

If a deity is timeless, then "creation" is a corruption, and is a temporal *marker*. Can't have it both ways. It's one of the main reasons there is is no coherent way to talk about a gawd.

I take your point there, although It would resolve the problem if it turned out that the human concept of "time" is an illusion caused by looking from a relative (human mind perspective) rather than from an absolute perspective. Which I think it is.

Just as "birth" or "creation" is an illusion. All matter and energy in the universe cancel out, sum to zero. This means that in an absolute sense, "creation" or "birth" hasn't actually happened.

great optical illusion though!

Phil
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26-08-2014, 01:34 PM
RE: Why does he always need to be eternal
(26-08-2014 11:47 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  ...
Timeless = |------------------->

Consider

That looks like a time line to me.

So, more like time-full.

Drinking Beverage

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26-08-2014, 01:44 PM
RE: Why does he always need to be eternal
Based on what we now know about physics, in respect the time being a temporal dimension of space, it doesn't appear possible for god to be eternal, or even older than the universe. He must therefore be timeless, meaning "existing" in a state free of the dimension of space and time, or exactly as old as the universe.
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26-08-2014, 01:48 PM
RE: Why does he always need to be eternal
(26-08-2014 12:08 PM)phil.a Wrote:  Well, I'd agree that noTHING can be eternal, all space-time entities have a beginning and an end.

But if "god" is not a thing, as in not an entity in space-time, then again - that problem does not arise. And "god" would not be in space-time, since "he" must have existed before space and time to have created it.

Related philosophical concepts framed in less theistic terms: The Unmanifest and The Absolute.

Phil
Ok, but my point was the theist "answer" always result in another question without an answer so they haven't resolved anything. In your interpretation, the new question would be "how can a god exist outside space and time?" No matter what direction one takes in an attempt to explain the beginning or non-beginning of all things, there is always a question that currently has no better answer than "I don't know".

It basically comes down to there either was a time when existence itself didn't exist or existence in some form has always existed. (Yes, I know that was stated in temporal terms, but I don't know how else to say it.) But either of those is a mind bender to think about.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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26-08-2014, 01:52 PM
RE: Why does he always need to be eternal
(26-08-2014 01:44 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Based on what we now know about physics, in respect the time being a temporal dimension of space, it doesn't appear possible for god to be eternal, or even older than the universe. He must therefore be timeless, meaning "existing" in a state free of the dimension of space and time, or exactly as old as the universe.
Why couldn't god exist outside the universe and therefore not be subject to the time of this universe? (Just speaking logically. Of course, god would have to exist at all first. Tongue )

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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26-08-2014, 01:54 PM
RE: Why does he always need to be eternal
But if the world is on the back of a turtle, then what is the turtle on top of?

... this is my signature!
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