Why does he always need to be eternal
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26-08-2014, 02:02 PM
RE: Why does he always need to be eternal
(26-08-2014 01:48 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Ok, but my point was the theist "answer" always result in another question without an answer so they haven't resolved anything. In your interpretation, the new question would be "how can a god exist outside space and time?" No matter what direction one takes in an attempt to explain the beginning or non-beginning of all things, there is always a question that currently has no better answer than "I don't know".

It basically comes down to there either was a time when existence itself didn't exist or existence in some form has always existed. (Yes, I know that was stated in temporal terms, but I don't know how else to say it.) But either of those is a mind bender to think about.

Well I agree it's a total mind-bender, but it's all based on the idea of an Unmanifest reality. Because it's "unmanifest", it does not exist in the way we normally consider to be meaningful, e.g. as an object inside space-time.

As summed up on the wikipedia page: "It also, necessarily, cannot be explained or comprehended in terms of any manifest reality."

Essentially it's completely unassailable through reason, simply because reason manipulates conceptual objects in our mental cognitive space.

So our mind just borks when presented with an "unmanifest" (e.g. non-object) to reflect on.

You may quite reasonably ask - if it's not possible to think about it, where did the idea even come from?

The answer is from this experience.

It's usually taken as a given that "esoteric" concepts are not directly meaningful to someone until they have had the Satori experience, which could be described as a direct personal experience of the Absolute.

Phil
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26-08-2014, 02:04 PM
RE: Why does he always need to be eternal
(26-08-2014 01:54 PM)cjlr Wrote:  But if the world is on the back of a turtle, then what is the turtle on top of?

Oh, you think you're so clever. It's turtles all the way down. Angry

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26-08-2014, 02:06 PM
RE: Why does he always need to be eternal
(26-08-2014 01:54 PM)cjlr Wrote:  But if the world is on the back of a turtle, then what is the turtle on top of?

It's turtles all the way down.

In my opinion, that's actually somewhat descriptive, in that I think it's reasonable to suppose that all particles are created out of process relationships of sub-particles - all the way "down" to infinity, e.g. it's bottomless.

Phil
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26-08-2014, 02:08 PM
RE: Why does he always need to be eternal
(26-08-2014 02:02 PM)phil.a Wrote:  It's usually taken as a given that "esoteric" concepts are not directly meaningful to someone until they have had the Satori experience, which could be described as a direct personal experience of the Absolute.

Incommunicable subjective personal experience; how compelling.

If intuition is a valid methodology, why are its results not in agreement?

(but let me just say it's kind of adorable that the wiki page for "unmanifest" is a minimal, unsourced drabble that's been flagged as wanting for the last seven years)

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26-08-2014, 02:22 PM
RE: Why does he always need to be eternal
(26-08-2014 01:54 PM)cjlr Wrote:  But if the world is on the back of a turtle, then what is the turtle on top of?

A fluffy bed of unadulterated awesome sauce.

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26-08-2014, 02:39 PM
RE: Why does he always need to be eternal
(26-08-2014 02:08 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(26-08-2014 02:02 PM)phil.a Wrote:  It's usually taken as a given that "esoteric" concepts are not directly meaningful to someone until they have had the Satori experience, which could be described as a direct personal experience of the Absolute.

Incommunicable subjective personal experience; how compelling.

If intuition is a valid methodology, why are its results not in agreement?

They are. Zen for example has a clearly defined path for achieving the experience, it also has a methodology for testing persons who claim to have had the experience. It's identifiable because it leaves the person's mind to some extent permanently transformed.

This is not really much different to (for example) identifying someone with true rational thinking skills. Anyone who has abstract thinking skills can ask someone a few questions to quickly determine if they also have abstract thinking skills.

My personal experience of abstract thinking is a "subjective personal experience" occurring in my brain, nobody can actually join me inside my mind to verify i really am thinking abstractly. But they can ask me questions...

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26-08-2014, 02:41 PM
RE: Why does he always need to be eternal
(26-08-2014 01:54 PM)cjlr Wrote:  But if the world is on the back of a turtle, then what is the turtle on top of?

Dummy.
You think you're so smart.
It's turtles all the way down.

(Oh I see someone beat me too it .. welll .. well ... never mind)

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26-08-2014, 03:28 PM
RE: Why does he always need to be eternal
(26-08-2014 02:02 PM)phil.a Wrote:  Well I agree it's a total mind-bender, but it's all based on the idea of an Unmanifest reality. Because it's "unmanifest", it does not exist in the way we normally consider to be meaningful, e.g. as an object inside space-time.

As summed up on the wikipedia page: "It also, necessarily, cannot be explained or comprehended in terms of any manifest reality."

Essentially it's completely unassailable through reason, simply because reason manipulates conceptual objects in our mental cognitive space.

So our mind just borks when presented with an "unmanifest" (e.g. non-object) to reflect on.

You may quite reasonably ask - if it's not possible to think about it, where did the idea even come from?

The answer is from this experience.

It's usually taken as a given that "esoteric" concepts are not directly meaningful to someone until they have had the Satori experience, which could be described as a direct personal experience of the Absolute.

Phil
While thinking about "unmanifest reality" may be an interesting mental exercise, what evidence do we have that it's based in any more reality than "god"? Consider

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26-08-2014, 03:35 PM
RE: Why does he always need to be eternal
(26-08-2014 03:28 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(26-08-2014 02:02 PM)phil.a Wrote:  Well I agree it's a total mind-bender, but it's all based on the idea of an Unmanifest reality. Because it's "unmanifest", it does not exist in the way we normally consider to be meaningful, e.g. as an object inside space-time.

As summed up on the wikipedia page: "It also, necessarily, cannot be explained or comprehended in terms of any manifest reality."

Essentially it's completely unassailable through reason, simply because reason manipulates conceptual objects in our mental cognitive space.

So our mind just borks when presented with an "unmanifest" (e.g. non-object) to reflect on.

You may quite reasonably ask - if it's not possible to think about it, where did the idea even come from?

The answer is from this experience.

It's usually taken as a given that "esoteric" concepts are not directly meaningful to someone until they have had the Satori experience, which could be described as a direct personal experience of the Absolute.

Phil
While thinking about "unmanifest reality" may be an interesting mental exercise, what evidence do we have that it's based in any more reality than "god"? Consider

His own subjective personal experience.

What more could you possibly ask for?
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26-08-2014, 03:40 PM
RE: Why does he always need to be eternal
(26-08-2014 02:39 PM)phil.a Wrote:  
(26-08-2014 02:08 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Incommunicable subjective personal experience; how compelling.

If intuition is a valid methodology, why are its results not in agreement?

They are.

Citation needed.

Last I checked there were innumerable claims of privileged knowledge.

(26-08-2014 02:39 PM)phil.a Wrote:  Zen for example has a clearly defined path for achieving the experience, it also has a methodology for testing persons who claim to have had the experience. It's identifiable because it leaves the person's mind to some extent permanently transformed.

Christianity for example has a clearly defined path for achieving its experience, it also has a methodology for testing persons who claim to have had the experience.

So what?

(26-08-2014 02:39 PM)phil.a Wrote:  This is not really much different to (for example) identifying someone with true rational thinking skills. Anyone who has abstract thinking skills can ask someone a few questions to quickly determine if they also have abstract thinking skills.

And you are defining "abstract" as ... ?

(26-08-2014 02:39 PM)phil.a Wrote:  My personal experience of abstract thinking is a "subjective personal experience" occurring in my brain, nobody can actually join me inside my mind to verify i really am thinking abstractly. But they can ask me questions...

Thank you for that stunningly pointless observation. Why yes, others in fact do not experience your thought processes.

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