Why don't counter-apologetics use these arguments?
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19-10-2014, 06:17 PM
Why don't counter-apologetics use these arguments?
I thought of a few extra arguments after reading Hitchens, and am wondering why they are not used more often:

1. For people who believe in heaven and hell, how could you be happy in heaven knowing your friends/ family are being tortured for eternity in hell? Almost everyone has to agree this would not make them happy, meaning Heaven cannot be a perpetual paradise, and thus, the idea of Heaven is flawed.

2. Who created Satan?
Obviously an argument in the discussion of 'why is there evil', but for everyone who says Satan is responsible for evil (and not God) how do they respond to this?
Even if they then use the free will escape: Satan would have had to have betrayed God in the 2nd week (after seventh day but before Eve ate the apple)... which would make God a massive failure if he couldn't keep his 'creation' safe for even a couple of weeks?

Let me know what you guys think of these arguments, and what you think apologetics might respond with?
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19-10-2014, 06:26 PM
RE: Why don't counter-apologetics use these arguments?
The claims I've heard go something like this:

(19-10-2014 06:17 PM)tnels01 Wrote:  1. For people who believe in heaven and hell, how could you be happy in heaven knowing your friends/ family are being tortured for eternity in hell?
Once in heaven, our worldly morals and ethics are gone, and we have some sort of spiritual version. That is, we do not feel bad for them, as they chose that by not following the One True God. It's sort of like if you have a bad neighbor that moves away. You just don't care what happened to him anymore. Besides, they say, once in heaven, "family" takes on a new meaning.

(19-10-2014 06:17 PM)tnels01 Wrote:  2. Who created Satan?
The excuses for this one go all over the place. Many say that, yes, God made Satan. However, there actually are quite a few denominations who say Satan is not evil per se. Instead, he works as an agent of God (can't help but think of the Blues Brothers when I say that), in that he gives us alternatives and tempts us. It's our duty in the end to choose good or evil. In essence, he's not evil, but he tempts the evil that's already in our wretched, horrible, pathetic little bodies.

I've heard the excuse that they can't choose God if there's no other choice. Therefore Satan is there to tempt us and give us a choice.


Now if I could charge for being an apologetic expert, I'd be rolling in the money.
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19-10-2014, 06:30 PM
RE: Why don't counter-apologetics use these arguments?
As to the first point, I've heard some say that you are not aware of your relationships on Earth. Where that came from I have no idea, probably just an off the top of the head bullshit response.
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19-10-2014, 06:42 PM
RE: Why don't counter-apologetics use these arguments?
Most apologists deliberately make their bullshit as vague and unfathomable as possible... For the simple reason that its impossible to argue with them. Any serious argument you put forward, they just avoid.

Personally, if I'm to debate an apologist, I insist that it takes place face to face, in person... At least then I can kick them up the arse when they start getting all vague and shit.

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19-10-2014, 06:47 PM
RE: Why don't counter-apologetics use these arguments?
(19-10-2014 06:17 PM)tnels01 Wrote:  I thought of a few extra arguments after reading Hitchens, and am wondering why they are not used more often:

1. For people who believe in heaven and hell, how could you be happy in heaven knowing your friends/ family are being tortured for eternity in hell? Almost everyone has to agree this would not make them happy, meaning Heaven cannot be a perpetual paradise, and thus, the idea of Heaven is flawed.

2. Who created Satan?
Obviously an argument in the discussion of 'why is there evil', but for everyone who says Satan is responsible for evil (and not God) how do they respond to this?
Even if they then use the free will escape: Satan would have had to have betrayed God in the 2nd week (after seventh day but before Eve ate the apple)... which would make God a massive failure if he couldn't keep his 'creation' safe for even a couple of weeks?

Let me know what you guys think of these arguments, and what you think apologetics might respond with?

Oh yes, I've brought both these points up with Christians. They rationalize their way around stuff like this. They say something like, god disables our thoughts in heaven so we don't think about the suffering of our family or friends. The other answer is that Satan chose to be bad.

I don't know where they get the heaven answer, I don't think there's anything in the Bible about god dumbing down our emotions and thoughts in heaven so you could counter with that.

It's all stupid.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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19-10-2014, 08:25 PM
RE: Why don't counter-apologetics use these arguments?
(19-10-2014 06:26 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  The claims I've heard go something like this:

(19-10-2014 06:17 PM)tnels01 Wrote:  1. For people who believe in heaven and hell, how could you be happy in heaven knowing your friends/ family are being tortured for eternity in hell?
Once in heaven, our worldly morals and ethics are gone, and we have some sort of spiritual version. That is, we do not feel bad for them, as they chose that by not following the One True God. It's sort of like if you have a bad neighbor that moves away. You just don't care what happened to him anymore. Besides, they say, once in heaven, "family" takes on a new meaning.

(19-10-2014 06:17 PM)tnels01 Wrote:  2. Who created Satan?
The excuses for this one go all over the place. Many say that, yes, God made Satan. However, there actually are quite a few denominations who say Satan is not evil per se. Instead, he works as an agent of God (can't help but think of the Blues Brothers when I say that), in that he gives us alternatives and tempts us. It's our duty in the end to choose good or evil. In essence, he's not evil, but he tempts the evil that's already in our wretched, horrible, pathetic little bodies.

I've heard the excuse that they can't choose God if there's no other choice. Therefore Satan is there to tempt us and give us a choice.


Now if I could charge for being an apologetic expert, I'd be rolling in the money.

yeah, I agree with this.

Pretty much, your human conciousness, memories, experiences, free will, choices, everything 100% that you think makes you who you are, all your emotions and so forth that you think makes you exist.

....and your actual soul itself are not in any possible way related, connected or the same in any way what so ever.

Basically, your soul and your existence as a living creature are about as different as a rock that is floating around on another galaxy and a cat that is somewhere on the other side of the planet that you are from.

It shares absolutely nothing in common and is nothing alike. There for, that other "you" has no connections to those people in hell and could care less. So your accepting god into your life is NOT guaranteeing you an afterlife in paradise, because you HAVE no afterlife. You are doing nothing more than securing the soul or your other "you" a safe and happy afterlife. You die and rot in the ground cuz you have no afterlife.


My Youtube channel if anyone is interested.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEkRdbq...rLEz-0jEHQ
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19-10-2014, 09:36 PM
RE: Why don't counter-apologetics use these arguments?
(19-10-2014 06:26 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  The claims I've heard go something like this:

(19-10-2014 06:17 PM)tnels01 Wrote:  1. For people who believe in heaven and hell, how could you be happy in heaven knowing your friends/ family are being tortured for eternity in hell?
Once in heaven, our worldly morals and ethics are gone, and we have some sort of spiritual version. That is, we do not feel bad for them, as they chose that by not following the One True God. It's sort of like if you have a bad neighbor that moves away. You just don't care what happened to him anymore. Besides, they say, once in heaven, "family" takes on a new meaning.

(19-10-2014 06:17 PM)tnels01 Wrote:  2. Who created Satan?
The excuses for this one go all over the place. Many say that, yes, God made Satan. However, there actually are quite a few denominations who say Satan is not evil per se. Instead, he works as an agent of God (can't help but think of the Blues Brothers when I say that), in that he gives us alternatives and tempts us. It's our duty in the end to choose good or evil. In essence, he's not evil, but he tempts the evil that's already in our wretched, horrible, pathetic little bodies.

I've heard the excuse that they can't choose God if there's no other choice. Therefore Satan is there to tempt us and give us a choice.


Now if I could charge for being an apologetic expert, I'd be rolling in the money.


Thanks for the reply that does sound like an apologist! Although to counteract the point of 'losing wordly morals (which is to say that our memories would have to be wiped out):
1. How would you even know you're in Heaven? How would you know heaven is an afterlife and not just the only life? You would then also have to lose everything you already knew about God... which is to say you would be starting from a spiritual blank slate?
2. In the NT it alludes to different 'levels' of Heaven and being regarded differently because of your actions on Earth... Would noone then know why someone is higher up?
3. If you apply that 'detached soul' argument to Hell... then it's saying people are being tortured eternally in Hell without ever knowing why?

What are your thoughts on this? and if anyone has seen this argument brought up before please let me know I would love to see a counter-apologist use this line of argument.
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19-10-2014, 09:41 PM
RE: Why don't counter-apologetics use these arguments?
Satan was a fallen angel.

Who made the angels?

Godidit


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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19-10-2014, 10:07 PM
RE: Why don't counter-apologetics use these arguments?
(19-10-2014 09:41 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Satan was a fallen angel.

Who made the angels?

Godidit

You'd think that after God tried the whole 'Free-Will' thing with the angels and it bit him in the ass, you'd think he'd have learned his lesson before making humanity, but no... Dodgy

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19-10-2014, 10:28 PM
RE: Why don't counter-apologetics use these arguments?
(19-10-2014 10:07 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(19-10-2014 09:41 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Satan was a fallen angel.

Who made the angels?

Godidit

You'd think that after God tried the whole 'Free-Will' thing with the angels and it bit him in the ass, you'd think he'd have learned his lesson before making humanity, but no... Dodgy

Don't forget the nephilim; if they weren't a giant cock-up, nothing was.

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