Why don't you believe in a possible God?
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17-01-2016, 01:59 AM
RE: Why don't you believe in a possible God?
(17-01-2016 12:39 AM)GrandMasterK Wrote:  So I wonder, why the disbelief? Or rather, when did you declare yourself an atheist as opposed to not declaring yourself anything at all? (as perhaps a man alone in a world of strictly science may do)


Provide a meaningful (i.e. potentially falsifiable) definition of what you mean by 'god', then provide corroborative and verifiable evidence for it's existence.

Until such time as that happens, professing a positive belief in such an undefined and nebulous meaning is irrational drivel. So instead we all find ourselves without sufficient reason for said belief, and thus find ourselves to be atheists; those lacking a positive belief in literal existence of 'gods'.

God is a word, a proper noun, and a concept that embodies a huge spectrum of beliefs and truth claims. But there's no evidence to support the the existence of an invisible pan-dimensional petulant space wizard that will judge you for thought crimes and at all gives a fuck about what you or anybody else does while naked.

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17-01-2016, 02:09 AM
RE: Why don't you believe in a possible God?
If you examine the history of any given religion you will find that it served a specific function at one point; sometimes many functions throughout varrying time periods. Seeing this history helps one see past the veil of mysticism. All religon is a social construct; created either by the common man to achieve a sense of understanding and control in an unexplainable world - or by the common mans lords, to achieve control over the common man.

We have no problem seeing the reasons people onced believed Greek 'mythology' to be true other than it actually being true. I, as an atheist, have no problem understanding the same for modern religions. We call an old Greek religion Greek 'mythology' - and in doing so we are implying its non-truthfulness: Nobody alive today cares about this (accurate) representation. Modern religion is not fundementally different than these 'myths,' so why should I represent it as anything other than fiction, perhaps with historical significance? There is none.
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17-01-2016, 02:11 AM (This post was last modified: 17-01-2016 02:32 AM by GenesisNemesis.)
RE: Why don't you believe in a possible God?
Do you think a mind can exist without matter? If you have evidence that a mind can exist without matter, then I will consider the possibility that a non-material being can exist. However, even if that were true you still have a lot of work to do before you could convince me a deity exists.

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17-01-2016, 02:37 AM
RE: Why don't you believe in a possible God?
If there is a possible 'God' he/it obviously could not care less about mankind.

So why should we care?
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17-01-2016, 05:23 AM
RE: Why don't you believe in a possible God?
(17-01-2016 12:39 AM)GrandMasterK Wrote:  A lot of people simply don't see the bias that directs their opinions. For a lot of atheists, they don't seem to consider anything outside of disagreeing with established ideas and religions

Then they are stupid and blocking the progress of gaining knowledge.
But its a big step from considering something being outside established ideas and religions, and "believing" in this shit immeadiately without further examination and evidence, or even stating this shit is real.
Believing in something you have no good reason for: stupidity/gullability
Stating that shit is true were you have no compelling evidence for: dishonesty
I dont like either of them, particularly the latter (bcause it affects other persons around me directly)


(17-01-2016 12:39 AM)GrandMasterK Wrote:  After all, consciousness could be contained in dark matter
And you could have pulled that right out of your ass. We know these things about dark matter until now:
1. It interacts with "conventional" matter and light gravitationally only ( = accelerates matter and bends light)
2. It does not "collide" with conventinal matter to put it simple.
3.It does not emit or absorb light/electromagnetic waves at all

Because of 2 and 3 it is not directly observable...yet.
Please explain what this has to do with consciousness, or pink unicorns for that matter. Facepalm

(17-01-2016 12:39 AM)GrandMasterK Wrote:  A universe of laws without a lawmaker is a curious one
Thanks for demonstrating you dont have a clue what a scientific "law" is.
Hint: Try to google "descriptive" and then "prescriptive", you will notice a difference in content. Weeping

(17-01-2016 12:39 AM)GrandMasterK Wrote:  The four forces....have force somehow
Yes, the force is strong with this one...........seemingly not.
So you dont have a clue what you are talking about even (see: dark matter), dont know what point you are even trying to make? Why say anything then? What do you think would happen if we all start babbling around about all kinda stuff we know nothing about. Lets leave that do the people who do know?
If you dont know stuff but are curious/interested, go and educate yourself before you start talking about it. Smartass

(17-01-2016 12:39 AM)GrandMasterK Wrote:  Though if we assume design, then the obvious question who designed the designer and so on and so fourth pops up pretty quick
Though if we assume i just won 1billion in the lottery, the obvious question what do i do with all the cash and so forth pops up pretty quick. Think thats silly and boring and a waste of time? It is! Consider

(17-01-2016 12:39 AM)GrandMasterK Wrote:  Again, a somewhat hidden bias behind peoples thinking is that the concept of a God entails no need for an even higher creator, yet for some reason the concept of the universe does
Now for my favourite: Know the difference between the concept of god and concept of the universe?
The universe is no concept! Facepalm
Really, before speculating about infinite (or not) regresses, you should stop for 1 second and notice the difference between things that are real and thoughts you entertain. I am not even talking about our current state of knowlege, that at the very start of the big bang, time-space breaks down, and words like "time", "space", "causation", etc. become meaningless.
The fact that we may need to add considerably to our general way of thinking, or even completely change it, in order to gain more knowledge about the universe (= "everything there is") does not mean we should, in the meantime or instead of, believe in *insert your favourite delusion/fantasy/speculation here*.

My certainty that there is no god? 99%, based on 100% lack of compelling evidence for a god. Anything wrong with that?

Think i was rude? Really my friend, some of your statments really are silly, lets face it.Big Grin

And then, last but not least, the title alone of this thread: Why belive in any thing possible......like my lottery billion?
I prefer to believe in reality. The one that was (and is in the process of) demonstrated to exist.
You can speculate about god all day long....as much as about gazillion of other things. Why the need to believe in anything you are speculating about?
Isnt that intellectually dishonest and the start of a delusion?
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17-01-2016, 05:39 AM
RE: Why don't you believe in a possible God?
(17-01-2016 12:39 AM)GrandMasterK Wrote:  So I wonder, why the disbelief?

As agnostic, you don't believe either.

You consider it possible that there may be some sort of entity that could be labeled as "god".

So, do you think it possible that any or all of the gods humans worship/have worshipped exist?

If so, which one? Or have you manufactured your own idea of what this "god" would be like?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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17-01-2016, 06:07 AM
RE: Why don't you believe in a possible God?
Look, chum. Do you think the universe was created by the God Ug wanking off into his breakfast cereal? If not why not?

It's manifestly something made up. Same with religion. So until religion comes up with a better storyline than the bullshit they currently spout, I'll accord their beliefs the same respect I have for the God Ug's Jizz-Soaked Cheerios.

By all means continue to find new ways to explain how much better *your* belief position is than those stupid atheists, though Smile

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-01-2016, 06:21 AM
RE: Why don't you believe in a possible God?
From the rational point of view, I don't discount the possibility of the existence of god. I just discount the notion of a god who interacts with mankind, as there is no evidence of such a thing. Calling some first cause god in that case 1) is meaningless (as there is no practical difference between an indifferent first mover god and no god) and 2) encourages the many evils of religion. So I refuse to equate a first cause and god, or to use the terms as synonyms.

But let's say I'm wrong about the evidence, and there is a personal god who has designed the universe and people, demands worship, sends humans who don't worship to hell, etc. I can reject the worship of such a god on ethical grounds. I won't violate my personal ethics and serve an incompetent, rage-filled mass murderer.

And above, I only concede that a personal god exists for the purposes of explaining why I would not change my actions one jot, should god's existence be proved.

I therefore call myself an agnostic/pragmatic atheist, because I have no reason for acting as if there is a god, be it the personal or first mover type. I'm not required to be so fine-tuned in my disbelief about other woo concepts (leprechauns, karma, third eyes), but to spare your hurt feels about god, I've parsed it for you.
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17-01-2016, 06:25 AM
RE: Why don't you believe in a possible God?
(17-01-2016 12:39 AM)GrandMasterK Wrote:  Hi. Firstly, disclaimer. I am an agnostic. I come with this question out of ignorance of the matter as most "atheists" I run into speak as if they are certain there is no God. However, reading some of the writings on this board I notice that isn't quite where a lot of sophisticated atheists typically file their opinion.

I notice most people, religious or not, base their opinions of a process of reasoning that doesn't quite hold up under scrutiny. A lot of people simply don't see the bias that directs their opinions. For a lot of atheists, they don't seem to consider anything outside of disagreeing with established ideas and religions. Naturally this is curious because we are of limited intellect, crowding one tiny planet in the vast cosmos, most of us having hardly even explored much of this tiny planet, much less the universe. Yet most of us are so certain in what we believe and don't believe. After all, consciousness could be contained in dark matter. Probably isn't. But it could be.

A universe of laws without a lawmaker is a curious one. The four forces....have force somehow. We may never be able to understand it. Though if we assume design, then the obvious question who designed the designer and so on and so fourth pops up pretty quick. Again, a somewhat hidden bias behind peoples thinking is that the concept of a God entails no need for an even higher creator, yet for some reason the concept of the universe does. Nobody knows the answer to that question of course.

So I wonder, why the disbelief? Or rather, when did you declare yourself an atheist as opposed to not declaring yourself anything at all? (as perhaps a man alone in a world of strictly science may do)

I don't "believe in a possible God" because I don't believe in anything at all. Nothing that is real requires belief, and nothing that isn't real becomes true merely because you believe in it. Belief= LIE.

In another thread, we have demonstrated that omnipotence is not possible. So I guess we need to define God as not-quite-all-powerful in order for there to be any chance whatsoever for God to exist.

Now then. If God exists but isn't quite all-knowing and all-powerful, can He REALLY know what I'm thinking - know whether I am believing in exactly the right version of ancient mopumbo-jumbo to unlock the gates of heaven for me when I die? Given the vastness of the universe, can it be even remotely feasible that He is paying any attention at all to what we do here - that He is keeping some sort of tally by which to judge our fitness to enter the Kingdom and receive our 73 virgins (I'm greedy)??

So far, every available shred of evidence points to an indifferent Universe.
The interactive God of old tales has not made an appearance since long before the modern age of scientific inquiry.

And to top that all off, He hates gays and demands we do likewise.... sorry, but while gays might be a bit odd I don't see the need to hate them
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17-01-2016, 06:45 AM
RE: Why don't you believe in a possible God?
(17-01-2016 12:39 AM)GrandMasterK Wrote:  Hi. Firstly, disclaimer. I am an agnostic.

*sigh*
That word does not mean what you think it means.

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