Why is god surprised by our behavior?
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10-12-2013, 02:27 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 02:17 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 02:10 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  It's a fair assessment.

I was just getting you used to referencing and defining a claim.

Moreover, understanding who you're challenging. Since the claim made by you is fairly irrelevant to non-literalists, it opens your argument up to different attack strategies by theists.

Ex:
I would say that the creation story is a story used by a lot of ANE cultures, and it was adapted by the Hebrew culture and inspired by God to convey a message; not a literal story - much like parables.

With that, it shuts downs your argument because you weren't specific in who you were addressing. Bible Literalists have a big problem with this concept, though, so you were on the right track. Bible Literalists also tend to be Arminian, so you attack that concept as well in terms of God not being all knowing or all powerful even though they assert that He is.

Of course that leave KC open to the counter punch of "Without a literal Genesis there was no original sin and thus no need for any covenant or sacrifice (Animal or Human) to atone" To which he will eventually just conceed his god is kind of a capricious asshole that just did it for the Lulz.

Original sin as understood by most denominations isn't needed in my model.

If God created sin and assigned it to the human race, the moment He gave us the knowledge of good and evil, that's the moment sin affected us; and God's predetermined elect were now defined.

In short, Adam and Eve didn't created original sin; God did. Adam and Eve aren't needed for original sin; God is. It wasn't anything that anyone did that gave us sin, it was how God created and planned it.

The only time we didn't have sin was when we were amoral creatures - before God imprinted His image upon us. When He did, we gained the knowledge of good and evil. Since he created us in depravity, sin was a part of our nature... it was always there... and it was never contingent on anyone else.

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10-12-2013, 02:28 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 01:30 PM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  Even when I was sort of a believer I never understood why god was surprised by our failings. He either created people thinking we'd be better behaved and then was surprised by our evilness or he purposely created us this way so he could scold/ send us to hell for acting the way we were programmed.
Or, he purposely created us this way so he could be our savior.
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10-12-2013, 02:36 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 02:10 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Moreover, understanding who you're challenging. Since the claim made by you is fairly irrelevant to non-literalists, it opens your argument up to different attack strategies by theists.

Ex:
I would say that the creation story is a story used by a lot of ANE cultures, and it was adapted by the Hebrew culture and inspired by God to convey a message; not a literal story - much like parables.

With that, it shuts downs your argument because you weren't specific in who you were addressing. Bible Literalists have a big problem with this concept, though, so you were on the right track. Bible Literalists also tend to be Arminian, so you attack that concept as well in terms of God not being all knowing or all powerful even though they assert that He is.
If you take parts of the Bible as "inspired by God to convey a message; not a literal story - much like parables," you still have to deal with the message. This position can get you out of things like the historicity of the flood. But for a moral issue, as in the OP, you have to deal with what the Bible says just as the literalist does. Otherwise you're not taking it as allegory or parable, you're rejecting it outright.
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10-12-2013, 02:41 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 02:36 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 02:10 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Moreover, understanding who you're challenging. Since the claim made by you is fairly irrelevant to non-literalists, it opens your argument up to different attack strategies by theists.

Ex:
I would say that the creation story is a story used by a lot of ANE cultures, and it was adapted by the Hebrew culture and inspired by God to convey a message; not a literal story - much like parables.

With that, it shuts downs your argument because you weren't specific in who you were addressing. Bible Literalists have a big problem with this concept, though, so you were on the right track. Bible Literalists also tend to be Arminian, so you attack that concept as well in terms of God not being all knowing or all powerful even though they assert that He is.
If you take parts of the Bible as "inspired by God to convey a message; not a literal story - much like parables," you still have to deal with the message. This position can get you out of things like the historicity of the flood. But for a moral issue, as in the OP, you have to deal with what the Bible says just as the literalist does. Otherwise you're not taking it as allegory or parable, you're rejecting it outright.

No, no you're not.

You're not rejecting anything except the literal creation story.

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10-12-2013, 02:44 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
I actually stumbled across the Christian God's psychology Video it shows a nice insight on why any God in general is so anthropomorphic,its the same thing as mickey mouse and tom&jerry the more relatable to humans this "God" authority figure is the more we actually can understand or at least pretend to understand.

Logically it makes 0% sense for an all powerful,all knowing God to have emotions or have a desire for anything there is no scientific reason in the universe for a God to exist Period.
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10-12-2013, 02:51 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
To KC and AM,
You state that "man did not create original sin - God did"; and "he created us this way to be our savior". What does this have to do with the argument of the OP? If this is the case, then why create us with sin and in need of a savior if only for obedience and power control? Once again, you both support the fact of this god figure being a flat out jerk.

And if I recall, there are many instances where god justifies his wrath in the Bible with some sort of preface like - "oh no, WTF, my ceation has screwed up so there needs to be gruesome violence and suffering to get things back on track". So one can interpret that man has done the unexpected (and surprised god) on more than one occasion - no?

Zero sense to me!!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
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10-12-2013, 03:10 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 02:41 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  No, no you're not.

You're not rejecting anything except the literal creation story.
That's my point. If you're only rejecting the literal creation story, then on questions dealing with morality, you're in the same boat as the literalist. For instance, you don't need to defend a literal worldwide flood, but you still need to deal with the message that God finds the whole world deserving of death.
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10-12-2013, 03:14 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 02:27 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Original sin as understood by most denominations isn't needed in my model.
If God created sin and assigned it to the human race, the moment He gave us the knowledge of good and evil, that's the moment sin affected us; and God's predetermined elect were now defined.
God didn't create sin simply because sin is something that does not exist in nature. Sin is just a term/made up word.
God gave moral agency. If I decided to lie it is my action(my choice) and not something that God created.

(10-12-2013 02:27 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  In short, Adam and Eve didn't created original sin; God did. Adam and Eve aren't needed for original sin; God is. It wasn't anything that anyone did that gave us sin, it was how God created and planned it.
Again God gave moral agency- freedom to chose the right. If God FORCED Adam to sin then God would be evil and He would be guilty of Adam's sin not Adam.
Adam was not forced by anybody. Even Satan can not force us to do evil. WE make this choice and we are to blame when we do evil.

(10-12-2013 02:27 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  The only time we didn't have sin was when we were amoral creatures - before God imprinted His image upon us. When He did, we gained the knowledge of good and evil. Since he created us in depravity, sin was a part of our nature... it was always there... and it was never contingent on anyone else.
Evil is eternal/ Evil is from eternity to eternity. Sin becomes a part of our nature only when we do our first evil/sin. Newborns are free of sin, they are perfect(spiritually) as angels in heaven.
Sin of Adam is not on us. We only inherit physical death and we are subjects to sin. It means we are born in a place were we can be tempted and where we get imperfect physical bodies which have weaknesses.

English is not my native language.
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10-12-2013, 03:21 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
The question you really have to ask is why did he create the serpent? Would of been eating from the tree of life and still in Eden. Now you got these people waiting for a better life after they die. Reading, preaching being good little boys and girls for big daddy and for what exactly? The ultimate unknown. Take it in, breath it. Where does ultimate devotion lead? Not to mention this predetermination aspect of life, no matter what you can't change a damn thing, you are stuck. Maybe you wanted to have a better life but nope, big man gots plans for you. This to even folks who worship different gods throughout history and who never knew salvation was around the corner sometimes even just thousands of years after they died. Now there's the rub.
Lets not forget the book they finally gave out with loads of editing from the original manuscript indistinguishable from other mythologies of the time before or after. Tell me, what exactly is the difference anyway?

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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10-12-2013, 03:25 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 02:51 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  To KC and AM,
You state that "man did not create original sin - God did"; and "he created us this way to be our savior". What does this have to do with the argument of the OP?
That the OP was not considering all aspects of the situation.
Quote:If this is the case, then why create us with sin and in need of a savior if only for obedience and power control?
Who said it was only for obedience and power control?
Quote:Once again, you both support the fact of this god figure being a flat out jerk.
God comes across as a jerk to those who reject him. He comes across as a wonderful savior to those who accept him.
Quote:And if I recall, there are many instances where god justifies his wrath in the Bible with some sort of preface like - "oh no, WTF, my ceation has screwed up so there needs to be gruesome violence and suffering to get things back on track". So one can interpret that man has done the unexpected (and surprised god) on more than one occasion - no?
Probably the plainest passage of such nature is in Genesis 3, where God asks A&E where they are and what they had done. I take those as rhetorical, as a parent might know darn well what a child had done yet ask them if they had done it anyway.
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