Why is god surprised by our behavior?
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10-12-2013, 03:34 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 03:25 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:Once again, you both support the fact of this god figure being a flat out jerk.
God comes across as a jerk to those who reject him. He comes across as a wonderful savior to those who accept him.

Coming across as a jerk to those who reject Him is overwhelmingly not a quality which will encourage those people to reconsider. "God is great, and to receive proof you need only already believe that God is great". Speaking of which, I hear circular reasoning works pretty well because circular reasoning works pretty well because circular reasoning works pretty well because circular reasoning works pretty well...

Thus rejection of God is self-reinforcing due to the very nature of God, according to such a mindset.

This cannot be reconciled with a desire for universal salvation. One might, as some do, take recourse to the old "eh, some people are just spiritually fucked regardless" position. In which case, omnibenevolent my ass.

Notwithstanding that the usual definition of "accepting" God is the single greatest Scotsman fallacy of all time; anyone who cannot buy in despite sincere effort must not have actually been sincere, and anyone who reconsiders after previously having faith must not have actually been sincere either.

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10-12-2013, 03:39 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 03:34 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Coming across as a jerk to those who reject Him is overwhelmingly not a quality which will encourage those people to reconsider. "God is great, and to receive proof you need only already believe that God is great". Speaking of which, I hear circular reasoning works pretty well because circular reasoning works pretty well because circular reasoning works pretty well because circular reasoning works pretty well...

Thus rejection of God is self-reinforcing due to the very nature of God, according to such a mindset.
And? There's a reason Jesus says the path to life is narrow and few find it.
Quote:This cannot be reconciled with a desire for universal salvation. One might, as some do, take recourse to the old "eh, some people are just spiritually fucked regardless" position. In which case, omnibenevolent my ass.
God desires reconciliation, but on his terms, not ours. And I didn't say he's omnibenevolent.
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10-12-2013, 03:55 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 03:39 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 03:34 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Coming across as a jerk to those who reject Him is overwhelmingly not a quality which will encourage those people to reconsider. "God is great, and to receive proof you need only already believe that God is great". Speaking of which, I hear circular reasoning works pretty well because circular reasoning works pretty well because circular reasoning works pretty well because circular reasoning works pretty well...

Thus rejection of God is self-reinforcing due to the very nature of God, according to such a mindset.
And? There's a reason Jesus says the path to life is narrow and few find it.

If it's incoherently circular, most people aren't going to find it compelling.

Most of the people who have ever or will ever live are necessarily condemned for being as God made them and living within the constraints God ordained.

What could possibly be the purpose of that?

(10-12-2013 03:39 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:This cannot be reconciled with a desire for universal salvation. One might, as some do, take recourse to the old "eh, some people are just spiritually fucked regardless" position. In which case, omnibenevolent my ass.
God desires reconciliation, but on his terms, not ours. And I didn't say he's omnibenevolent.

Plenty of people do, including the substantial majority of self-identified modern Christians. They obviously have reasons for their belief just as you do yours, but when diametrically opposed conclusions are drawn from the same "inspired" source material by similarly motivated people it tends to raise some questions.

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10-12-2013, 04:01 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 03:10 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 02:41 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  No, no you're not.

You're not rejecting anything except the literal creation story.
That's my point. If you're only rejecting the literal creation story, then on questions dealing with morality, you're in the same boat as the literalist. For instance, you don't need to defend a literal worldwide flood, but you still need to deal with the message that God finds the whole world deserving of death.

And how is all this not a matter of making up as you go along, really?

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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10-12-2013, 04:07 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 02:28 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 01:30 PM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  Even when I was sort of a believer I never understood why god was surprised by our failings. He either created people thinking we'd be better behaved and then was surprised by our evilness or he purposely created us this way so he could scold/ send us to hell for acting the way we were programmed.
Or, he purposely created us this way so he could be our savior.

So this whole thing is a manufactroversy.

"Let me save you... from myself!"
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10-12-2013, 04:16 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 03:55 PM)cjlr Wrote:  If it's incoherently circular, most people aren't going to find it compelling.
So they're not compelled.
Quote:Most of the people who have ever or will ever live are necessarily condemned for being as God made them and living within the constraints God ordained.

What could possibly be the purpose of that?
First, if you accept an age of accountability doctrine, then there could be a majority saved.

Second, the purpose is for God to make a more complete revelation of himself. Read Romans 9.

Quote:Plenty of people do, including the substantial majority of self-identified modern Christians.
Oh please, the substantial majority of self-identified modern Christians don't speak in such terms at all.
Quote:They obviously have reasons for their belief just as you do yours, but when diametrically opposed conclusions are drawn from the same "inspired" source material by similarly motivated people it tends to raise some questions.
Generally it's because they read omnibenevolent as all good, while I read it as all benevolent. Good is not necessarily benevolent.
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10-12-2013, 04:20 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 03:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 02:27 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Original sin as understood by most denominations isn't needed in my model.
If God created sin and assigned it to the human race, the moment He gave us the knowledge of good and evil, that's the moment sin affected us; and God's predetermined elect were now defined.
God didn't create sin simply because sin is something that does not exist in nature. Sin is just a term/made up word.
Why do you refuse to answer which batshit religion you subscribe to? It IS, however, true, that the idea of "sin" is made-up nonsense. But you have other horseshit to offer in its place:

Quote:God gave moral agency. If I decided to lie it is my action(my choice) and not something that God created.

Why would your made-up fairytale monster do such a thing, when it, being supposedly omnipotent, could easily have programmaed us to be incapable of such failures? Answer: the idiot iron-age goatfuckers who came up with this nonsense didn't think it through, and neither did you.

Quote:
(10-12-2013 02:27 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  In short, Adam and Eve didn't created original sin; God did. Adam and Eve aren't needed for original sin; God is. It wasn't anything that anyone did that gave us sin, it was how God created and planned it.
Again God gave moral agency- freedom to chose the right. If God FORCED Adam to sin then God would be evil and He would be guilty of Adam's sin not Adam.

You are cherry-picking your fairytale story. Supposedly this Gawd-thing PUT THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE IN THE GARDEN AND TOLD THEM NOT TO EAT FROM IT. As if a human could resist that. This Gawd-figure TEMPTED them in the story. IT is the one responsible for their falling into the TRAP IT set out for them. Your iron-age goatfuckers didn't think THAT through, either.

Quote:Adam was not forced by anybody. Even Satan can not force us to do evil.
Who in the story set the trap? The Gawd-figure.

Quote:WE make this choice and we are to blame when we do evil.


Well, how about that. And we don't need a Gawd-creature to GIVE us that choice.
(10-12-2013 02:27 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  The only time we didn't have sin was when we were amoral creatures - before God imprinted His image upon us.

REALLY, KC? How does THAT work? Dodgy



Quote:When He did, we gained the knowledge of good and evil. Since he created us in depravity, sin was a part of our nature... it was always there... and it was never contingent on anyone else.

I just LOVE watching a bunch of theists argue over their fairy stories.


Quote:Evil is eternal/ Evil is from eternity to eternity.

That doesn't even MEAN anything.


[quoteo]Sin becomes a part of our nature only when we do our first evil/sin. Newborns are free of sin, they are perfect(spiritually) as angels in heaven.[/quote]

GREAT -- so we should KILL THEM OFF AT BIRTH to ensure that they never have an opportunity to sin, and thus guarantee their place in Paradise. Rolleyes



Quote:Sin of Adam is not on us. We only inherit physical death and we are subjects to sin.
Word. Salad.


Quote: It means we are born in a place were we can be tempted and where we get imperfect physical bodies which have weaknesses.

So the sumbitch who created us imperfect and laid traps of temptation is entirely to blame. You see what happens when people think your silly fairy stories though? They just fall right apart.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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10-12-2013, 04:20 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 02:17 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 01:30 PM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  Even when I was sort of a believer I never understood why god was surprised by our failings. He either created people thinking we'd be better behaved and then was surprised by our evilness or he purposely created us this way so he could scold/ send us to hell for acting the way we were programmed.
He is not surprised. But He knows that we all can do better. And we know that we can do better. And I know that I can do better. I can be more patient, more kind, more compassionate, more honest, etc. That is all is needed.

Perhaps a more effective way is for this god to stop messing around, but if this god can't get his act together then he need find something else to do and leave his creation alone. This god needs to step up or step the fuck off.
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10-12-2013, 04:21 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 03:39 PM)alpha male Wrote:  God desires reconciliation, but on his terms, not ours. And I didn't say he's omnibenevolent.

What you are saying is that it is a NEEDY, CONTROLLING, INSECURE son of a bitch.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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10-12-2013, 04:24 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 03:25 PM)alpha male Wrote:  God comes across as a jerk to those who reject him. He comes across as a wonderful savior to those who accept him.

Two words for you: Stockholm Syndrome.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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