Why is god surprised by our behavior?
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10-12-2013, 04:24 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 04:16 PM)alpha male Wrote:  Generally it's because they read omnibenevolent as all good, while I read it as all benevolent. Good is not necessarily benevolent.

What is the difference between the two?

be·nev·o·lent /bəˈnevələnt/ Adjective: 1. Well meaning and kindly 2. (of an organization) Serving a charitable rather than a profit-
making purpose
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10-12-2013, 04:25 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 02:28 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 01:30 PM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  Even when I was sort of a believer I never understood why god was surprised by our failings. He either created people thinking we'd be better behaved and then was surprised by our evilness or he purposely created us this way so he could scold/ send us to hell for acting the way we were programmed.
Or, he purposely created us this way so he could be our savior.
This reminds me of a powerpuff girls episode. No hear me outTongue
You see there was this new guy in town the new superhero Major Man. He's muscling on the girls turf and a whole rash of disasters started happening, first it started small a old lady and a gun man. He stopped the gunman and then there was a dog in the road he saved, and also a building fire and saved a bunch of people from that. Now the Powerpuff Girls were getting kinda suspicious since he would always be there in the nick of time to save the day and the townspeople just loved him and relied on him to save the day. Then one day a monster came into town Major Man was powerless to stop it and while the girls were there watching this he was about to be ate, he was holding the monsters jaw in place with all his might to stop from being eaten though he was stuck. Why was he so helpless? Well, the fact was that he is the one who caused all those disasters in the first place, he hired his grandma and cousin to pose as the gunman and the old lady, pushed the dog into traffic, and set the building on fire. And the twist at the end was the girls hired the monster to prove he was a fraud. So...yes this does sound familiarBig Grin
So, should Major Man deserve praise by saving all those people even though he caused the disasters in the first place?

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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10-12-2013, 04:27 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 04:21 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  What you are saying is that it is a NEEDY, CONTROLLING, INSECURE son of a bitch.
That makes absolutely no sense. He allows the majority of adults to reject him. That's the opposite of needy and controlling.
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10-12-2013, 04:28 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 04:24 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  What is the difference between the two?

be·nev·o·lent /bəˈnevələnt/ Adjective: 1. Well meaning and kindly 2. (of an organization) Serving a charitable rather than a profit-
making purpose
If a judge sentenced a murderer to eating a piece of chocolate cake and going on his way, that would be benevolent, but most wouldn't consider it good.
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10-12-2013, 04:31 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 04:28 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 04:24 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  What is the difference between the two?

be·nev·o·lent /bəˈnevələnt/ Adjective: 1. Well meaning and kindly 2. (of an organization) Serving a charitable rather than a profit-
making purpose
If a judge sentenced a murderer to eating a piece of chocolate cake and going on his way, that would be benevolent, but most wouldn't consider it good.

Isn't it true that if a murder accepts god/jesus/both at the last minute (is punishing people for not accepting you considered needy? I'm not sure...) he gets chocolate cake for eternity? Hmm.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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10-12-2013, 04:43 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 04:24 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 04:16 PM)alpha male Wrote:  Generally it's because they read omnibenevolent as all good, while I read it as all benevolent. Good is not necessarily benevolent.

What is the difference between the two?

be·nev·o·lent /bəˈnevələnt/ Adjective: 1. Well meaning and kindly 2. (of an organization) Serving a charitable rather than a profit-
making purpose
So it is not benevolent, it is MALevolent. Which we all knew in the first place.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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10-12-2013, 04:45 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 04:27 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 04:21 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  What you are saying is that it is a NEEDY, CONTROLLING, INSECURE son of a bitch.
That makes absolutely no sense. He allows the majority of adults to reject him. That's the opposite of needy and controlling.

YOU said your fairytale monster DESIRES "reconciliation" (for falling into the traps it set) and ON ITS TERMS. THAT is what makes no fucking sense.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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10-12-2013, 05:54 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 04:16 PM)alpha male Wrote:  First, if you accept an age of accountability doctrine, then there could be a majority saved.

Not even close.

The single largest broad-level religious category is Christianity - with maybe 1 in 3 people on the planet professing such belief. This is already a very clear minority. Furthermore, most Christian denominations are mutually exclusive. The set of all possible "faithful" cannot be that large - it must be a proper subset of self-identified Christians. Therefore it is an even smaller minority.

Therefore if any single religious viewpoint is correct, the fraction of people who are "saved" (from the fate God created for them) is miniscule, and the vast and overwhelming majority of humanity was, is, and will be spiritually fucked for all eternity.

What's the point?

(10-12-2013 04:16 PM)alpha male Wrote:  Second, the purpose is for God to make a more complete revelation of himself. Read Romans 9.

Which, indeed, says that God doesn't give a shit about most people.

Which seems odd, since he nonetheless necessarily did give enough of a shit to create them in the first place.

(10-12-2013 04:16 PM)alpha male Wrote:  Oh please, the substantial majority of self-identified modern Christians don't speak in such terms at all.

Are you seriously claiming that a majority of Christians do not believe in an all-loving God?

(10-12-2013 04:16 PM)alpha male Wrote:  Generally it's because they read omnibenevolent as all good, while I read it as all benevolent. Good is not necessarily benevolent.

Benevolent literally means "wishing well". To distinguish that from "good" seems difficult.

Do you acribe omnibenevolence to your conception of God?

... this is my signature!
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10-12-2013, 05:56 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 04:24 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 04:16 PM)alpha male Wrote:  Generally it's because they read omnibenevolent as all good, while I read it as all benevolent. Good is not necessarily benevolent.

What is the difference between the two?

be·nev·o·lent /bəˈnevələnt/ Adjective: 1. Well meaning and kindly 2. (of an organization) Serving a charitable rather than a profit-
making purpose

I like how C.S Lewis puts it.
Quote:"There is kindness in Love: but Love and kindness are not coterminous, and when kindness (in the sense given above) is separated from the other elements of Love, it involves a certain fundamental indifference to its object, and even something like contempt of it. Kindness consents very readily to the removal of its object—we have all met people whose kindness to animals is constantly leading them to kill animals lest they should suffer. Kindness, merely as such, cares not whether its object becomes good or bad, provided only that it escapes suffering. As Scripture points out, it is bastards who are spoiled: the legitimate sons, who are to carry on the family tradition, are punished [Hebrews 12:8]. It is for people whom we care nothing about that we demand happiness on any terms: with our friends, our lovers, our children, we are exacting and would rather see them suffer much than be happy in contemptible and estranging modes. If God is Love, He is, by definition, something more than mere kindness. And it appears, from all the records, that though He has often rebuked us and condemned us, He has never regarded us with contempt. He has paid us the intolerable compliment of loving us, in the deepest, most tragic, most inexorable sense."

"What would really satisfy us would be a God who said of anything we happened to like doing, ‘What does it matter so long as they are contented?’ We want, in fact, not so much a Father in Heaven as a grandfather in heaven—a senile benevolence who, as they say, ‘liked to see young people enjoying themselves,’ and whose plan for the universe was simply that it might be truly said at the end of each day, ‘a good time was had by all’."

So kindness only cares that you're happy. Love cares that the source of your happiness is good for you.
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10-12-2013, 07:03 PM (This post was last modified: 10-12-2013 07:10 PM by The Misanthrope.)
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 02:10 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 01:46 PM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  I guess I'm talking about the creation myth, then the flood and then Jesus having to remove our sins. He seemed either stupid or evil

It's a fair assessment.

I was just getting you used to referencing and defining a claim.

Moreover, understanding who you're challenging. Since the claim made by you is fairly irrelevant to non-literalists, it opens your argument up to different attack strategies by theists.

Ex:
I would say that the creation story is a story used by a lot of ANE cultures, and it was adapted by the Hebrew culture and inspired by God to convey a message; not a literal story - much like parables.

With that, it shuts downs your argument because you weren't specific in who you were addressing. Bible Literalists have a big problem with this concept, though, so you were on the right track. Bible Literalists also tend to be Arminian, so you attack that concept as well in terms of God not being all knowing or all powerful even though they assert that He is.


Kings Chosen:
Quote:Ex: I would say that the creation story is a story used by a lot of ANE cultures, and it was adapted by the Hebrew culture and inspired by God to convey a message;
This is your opinion of what God thinks; i.o.w you are arrogantly psychoanalyzing "Him," narcissistically putting yourself above him.

Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one. And every Christian has a different one about what is a must to obey in the Bible (which is the only source of God commands, thoughts, and words that we have) and what is open to opinion.

If the Bible is open to opinion, as most Christians apparently believe, it is nothing but a novel, not an infallible arbiter of human behaviour that all must rigorously adhere to down here on earth.

If it is, it is as useless as the Pope's gnarled old nuts for producing disciplined, purposeful, harmonious, and above all, stereotypical behavior among God Botherers, which God says the Bible is all about.

You expressing an opinion about God's MO tells me you too concede the Bible is open to interpretation, nothing but an empty smorgasbord of "musts" and "thou shalt nots."

So for future reference would you like to give me a precis on what bits you do believe and what bits, if any, you consider are Bible musts? Or do you believe, as it appears to me, that only "the wise" i.e. certain blessed initiates, such as yourself, are able to ascertain what God and Big Jewlie were really saying from the cabalistic parables they spoke?
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