Why is god surprised by our behavior?
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10-12-2013, 07:32 PM (This post was last modified: 11-12-2013 08:03 AM by anonymous66.)
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 01:30 PM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  Even when I was sort of a believer I never understood why god was surprised by our failings. He either created people thinking we'd be better behaved and then was surprised by our evilness or he purposely created us this way so he could scold/ send us to hell for acting the way we were programmed.

As one former Christian to another, you may enjoy Mr Deity. It's a hilarious look at the logical inconsistencies in Christian theology.
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10-12-2013, 08:37 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 04:16 PM)alpha male Wrote:  First, if you accept an age of accountability doctrine, then there could be a majority saved.

Would there be enough?

From you, in the post you made right before that one:

(10-12-2013 03:39 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 03:34 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Coming across as a jerk to those who reject Him is overwhelmingly not a quality which will encourage those people to reconsider. "God is great, and to receive proof you need only already believe that God is great". Speaking of which, I hear circular reasoning works pretty well because circular reasoning works pretty well because circular reasoning works pretty well because circular reasoning works pretty well...

Thus rejection of God is self-reinforcing due to the very nature of God, according to such a mindset.
And? There's a reason Jesus says the path to life is narrow and few find it.

Few find it, and yet a few plus all the children equal a majority? How high is the age of accountability? 20?
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11-12-2013, 12:25 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 05:56 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 04:24 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  What is the difference between the two?

be·nev·o·lent /bəˈnevələnt/ Adjective: 1. Well meaning and kindly 2. (of an organization) Serving a charitable rather than a profit-
making purpose

I like how C.S Lewis puts it.
Quote:"There is kindness in Love: but Love and kindness are not coterminous, and when kindness (in the sense given above) is separated from the other elements of Love, it involves a certain fundamental indifference to its object, and even something like contempt of it. Kindness consents very readily to the removal of its object—we have all met people whose kindness to animals is constantly leading them to kill animals lest they should suffer. Kindness, merely as such, cares not whether its object becomes good or bad, provided only that it escapes suffering. As Scripture points out, it is bastards who are spoiled: the legitimate sons, who are to carry on the family tradition, are punished [Hebrews 12:8]. It is for people whom we care nothing about that we demand happiness on any terms: with our friends, our lovers, our children, we are exacting and would rather see them suffer much than be happy in contemptible and estranging modes. If God is Love, He is, by definition, something more than mere kindness. And it appears, from all the records, that though He has often rebuked us and condemned us, He has never regarded us with contempt. He has paid us the intolerable compliment of loving us, in the deepest, most tragic, most inexorable sense."

"What would really satisfy us would be a God who said of anything we happened to like doing, ‘What does it matter so long as they are contented?’ We want, in fact, not so much a Father in Heaven as a grandfather in heaven—a senile benevolence who, as they say, ‘liked to see young people enjoying themselves,’ and whose plan for the universe was simply that it might be truly said at the end of each day, ‘a good time was had by all’."

So kindness only cares that you're happy. Love cares that the source of your happiness is good for you.

And does it come as a surprise to you that CS Lewis pulled shit out of his own ass too?

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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11-12-2013, 01:03 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(11-12-2013 12:25 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 05:56 PM)Yasmin Wrote:  I like how C.S Lewis puts it.

So kindness only cares that you're happy. Love cares that the source of your happiness is good for you.

And does it come as a surprise to you that CS Lewis pulled shit out of his own ass too?

I wonder, would you care to actually explain your issue with what Lewis wrote? If you disagree enough to say something like that why not say why and actually help the conversation move along a bit?

Anyway, I love Lewis because he's one of the more honest Christian writers. If you read 'A grief observed,' he doesn't hold back on his struggles, anger and doubts; or how he overcomes them. Some writers seem to write about suffering and doubt in a way that's almost afraid to admit how it can overpower you- Lewis doesn't shy away from it
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11-12-2013, 06:17 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
Lewis has a odd way of coming to the conclusion that God exists and that God is the God of the Bible. He basically read the Bible, and then decided that Jesus was either liar, lunatic or Lord. He didn't even consider other possibilities..... Like, I don't know, that the Bible and Christianity are based on mythology.
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11-12-2013, 06:38 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
The problem with creating an imaginary god who is all knowing and all powerful, also comes with the baggage that this god becomes evil by default when it doesn't do anything to eliminate pain & suffering because it knows the pain & suffering that will be visited upon countless billions of lives.

The problem gets even worse when the imaginary god does take action in the story book, it's actions are genocide and killing, especially the killing of children.

So by default you have an evil god who not only doesn't do anything to eliminate pain & suffering, but instead causes massive planet wide genocide on a scale that would put the most ambitious homicidal maniac to shame.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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11-12-2013, 07:11 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 04:31 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  Isn't it true that if a murder accepts god/jesus/both at the last minute (is punishing people for not accepting you considered needy? I'm not sure...) he gets chocolate cake for eternity? Hmm.
In the Christian plan, the crime was paid for, by Jesus. Chocolate cake for eternity is a matter of grace.
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11-12-2013, 07:14 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 04:43 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  So it is not benevolent, it is MALevolent. Which we all knew in the first place.
Two words: false dichotomy.
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11-12-2013, 07:35 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 05:54 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Not even close.

The single largest broad-level religious category is Christianity - with maybe 1 in 3 people on the planet professing such belief. This is already a very clear minority. Furthermore, most Christian denominations are mutually exclusive. The set of all possible "faithful" cannot be that large - it must be a proper subset of self-identified Christians. Therefore it is an even smaller minority.

Therefore if any single religious viewpoint is correct, the fraction of people who are "saved" (from the fate God created for them) is miniscule, and the vast and overwhelming majority of humanity was, is, and will be spiritually fucked for all eternity.
You completely ignored my point, which was an age of accountability doctrine. This means that those who die before reaching a maturity sufficient to be judged are automatically saved. This isn’t explicitly stated in the Bible, as some people would kill children thinking they were doing good. But, it can be indirectly derived.

Quote:Which, indeed, says that God doesn't give a shit about most people.

“Doesn’t give a shit” is ambiguous. God cares for all people in that Christ took the sin of the world upon himself. However, God does allow people to reject that and claim responsibility for their own sin.
Quote:Which seems odd, since he nonetheless necessarily did give enough of a shit to create them in the first place.
Some – perhaps the majority, as noted above – are saved. I like this life and look forward to the next. Why should God forego creation because some people were going to bitch about the way they were created?

Quote:Are you seriously claiming that a majority of Christians do not believe in an all-loving God?
I’m seriously claiming that most Christians don’t use the word omnibenevolent, as I stated. As to “all-loving,” I don’t know, I’d need to see a survey. Doesn’t matter much to me as I defend the God of the Bible as best as I can interpret it, not the god of the majority.

Quote:Benevolent literally means "wishing well". To distinguish that from "good" seems difficult.
It’s not benevolent of me to make my kids do their homework although they don’t want to, but it’s good of me to do so.

Quote:Do you acribe omnibenevolence to your conception of God?
No. The flood certainly didn’t seem benevolent to those who perished in it.
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11-12-2013, 07:53 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 08:37 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 04:16 PM)alpha male Wrote:  First, if you accept an age of accountability doctrine, then there could be a majority saved.

Would there be enough?

From you, in the post you made right before that one:

(10-12-2013 03:39 PM)alpha male Wrote:  And? There's a reason Jesus says the path to life is narrow and few find it.

Few find it, and yet a few plus all the children equal a majority? How high is the age of accountability? 20?
Yes, it could be twenty. Consider this passage. An offering is taken which is or symbolizes a ransom and atonement for their lives, but it is only required of those twenty years old and above.

Quote:Exodus 30
11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “When you take a census of the Israelites to count them, each one must pay the Lord a ransom for his life at the time he is counted. Then no plague will come on them when you number them. 13 Each one who crosses over to those already counted is to give a half shekel,[c] according to the sanctuary shekel, which weighs twenty gerahs. This half shekel is an offering to the Lord. 14 All who cross over, those twenty years old or more, are to give an offering to the Lord. 15 The rich are not to give more than a half shekel and the poor are not to give less when you make the offering to the Lord to atone for your lives. 16 Receive the atonement money from the Israelites and use it for the service of the tent of meeting. It will be a memorial for the Israelites before the Lord, making atonement for your lives.”
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