Why is god surprised by our behavior?
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11-12-2013, 08:37 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 01:30 PM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  Even when I was sort of a believer I never understood why god was surprised by our failings. He either created people thinking we'd be better behaved and then was surprised by our evilness or he purposely created us this way so he could scold/ send us to hell for acting the way we were programmed.


Pointing out good behavior vs bad behavior is as old as the hills . And I don't necessarily attribute this to a god but rather to mankind taking stock in what he observed. In fact, one could argue that the whole thing regarding behavior could have nothing to do with a god atall. Which has been my stance against the writing of the bible for as long as I can remember. Since I believe religion to be a man-made invention - noticing that humans have a propensity for error and giving them a means to behave better - inventing god/blaming a god/seeking a god was an easy method.
Predating Christianity mankind already had mythologies whereby gods had been provided/created to deal with/cater to/admonish for/ every type of behavior. Ahura Mazda of the Vedic religion monitored all mankind's behavior and judged accordingly - predating Christianity some 2500+ yrs. Marduk: Babylonian, god of magic was the explanation for unusual circumstances beyond mankind's understanding so that man could cope. The Egyptian Osiris watched behavior. Zeus was so fascinated by human behavior he acted as one when it struck his fancy.
(just to flippantly suggest a couple...........the list and attributes & what connection of gods to mankind is astounding throughout).......

Point being long before the Abrahamic god and the compilation of the Bible, gods influenced and observed, aided or challenged or punished/rewarded mankind ---monitoring, helping or judging. Those who look to the Christian God alone with questions need only to drop back a couple thousand years to see a better view of 325 AD and how the God of Abraham came to be judge on behavior and how we came to be so flawed. (after all you have no need of a god unless you are flawed)

Relatively speaking you *could* of course only question the god of Abraham but I think that offers a narrow view of why mankind has had gods to help monitor behavior. And to do so somehow allows more credibility to the Abrahamic god moreso than others. When in reality who's to say what god has more relevance than another? To wonder why the Christian god basically set us up for failure is sure a fair question. But that god is only one in history that toyed with mankind.

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11-12-2013, 09:17 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 02:51 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  To KC and AM,
You state that "man did not create original sin - God did"; and "he created us this way to be our savior". What does this have to do with the argument of the OP? If this is the case, then why create us with sin and in need of a savior if only for obedience and power control? Once again, you both support the fact of this god figure being a flat out jerk.

We actually have quite different views... can't really lump us together.

However, I will reiterate what AM said about about the OP not considering all the different interpretations.

In my Calvinistic view, sin is a VITAL part of the plan that has to happen in order to have elect. Yes, that does mean that God can be considered a "jerk", but under the assumption that God is autonomous (as I believe); God cannot be judged by any of our standards or understandings because He is omniscient and we only have limited knowledge.

(10-12-2013 02:51 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  And if I recall, there are many instances where god justifies his wrath in the Bible with some sort of preface like - "oh no, WTF, my ceation has screwed up so there needs to be gruesome violence and suffering to get things back on track". So one can interpret that man has done the unexpected (and surprised god) on more than one occasion - no?

Zero sense to me!!

It depends on the context of the event. Please cite.

(10-12-2013 03:10 PM)alpha male Wrote:  That's my point. If you're only rejecting the literal creation story, then on questions dealing with morality, you're in the same boat as the literalist. For instance, you don't need to defend a literal worldwide flood, but you still need to deal with the message that God finds the whole world deserving of death.

I still fail to see the problem. I've offered my reconciliation for that. There is no crisis of morality here. God can do whatever He wants however He wants. It's according to His plan. He is autonomous and cannot be judged by our morality.

(10-12-2013 03:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  God didn't create sin simply because sin is something that does not exist in nature. Sin is just a term/made up word.
God gave moral agency. If I decided to lie it is my action(my choice) and not something that God created.

That's what I said... Sin didn't come about until God gave humanity the knowledge of good and evil. It's not present in nature as everything else is amoral.

Likewise, as I interpret the Bible, I see that God predestines all, and that we do not have choices. If that's the case, then God had to create sin.

(10-12-2013 03:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  Again God gave moral agency- freedom to chose the right. If God FORCED Adam to sin then God would be evil and He would be guilty of Adam's sin not Adam.
Adam was not forced by anybody. Even Satan can not force us to do evil. WE make this choice and we are to blame when we do evil.

I don't believe in choice. I also don't believe in a literal Adam. In any case, even though God did force humanity to sin, that doesn't make God evil. Again, that's according to human standards. In order for God's plan to come to fruition, there had to be evil. Because of the cause and effect that God ordained, humanity would now sin.

There is nothing that we do outside of God's will. If there is, it destroys God's omnipotence and subjects Him to our whims.

Quote:Evil is eternal/ Evil is from eternity to eternity. Sin becomes a part of our nature only when we do our first evil/sin. Newborns are free of sin, they are perfect(spiritually) as angels in heaven.
Sin of Adam is not on us. We only inherit physical death and we are subjects to sin. It means we are born in a place were we can be tempted and where we get imperfect physical bodies which have weaknesses.

No human is perfect. That's clearly stated in the Bible. All people are depraved and sinful because of a sin nature. It's only by God's grace and choice that some are forgiven of this sin nature.

So no, according to what the Bible says, newborns are not born without sin.

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11-12-2013, 09:58 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
"I don't believe in choice"
"There is nothing that we do outside of God's will. If there is, it destroys God's omnipotence and subjects Him to our whims."
"No human is perfect. That's clearly stated in the Bible. All people are depraved and sinful because of a sin nature. It's only by God's grace and choice that some are forgiven of this sin nature."

This goes pretty much against what all of my christian friends and family tell me about our choices and actions. So, you would subscribe to the notion that a child rapist is commiting these acts completely under gods will? It was not his choice to attack a child? And by god's grace the rapist has a chance to be forgiven for his nature? All along destroying the life of one or many innocent children? WOW! I did not think all that crap about Calvinism was anything like that - but WOW!

How can you not take a hard look at yourself for accepting this thought process? How can you subjugate or serve such a warped and imaginary father figure? And how do you know so much about this figure's intentions, use for sin, and your book with which millions of others may describe so differently?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
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11-12-2013, 10:03 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(11-12-2013 09:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  There is nothing that we do outside of God's will. If there is, it destroys God's omnipotence and subjects Him to our whims.

"we" as in me too? Or only believers such as yourself?

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11-12-2013, 10:08 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 02:27 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Since he created us in depravity, sin was a part of our nature... it was always there... and it was never contingent on anyone else.
Not quite a good Calvinist IMHO as a former Reformed Xtian, the Reformed confessions make it clear that depravity was not God's design, but man was made 'good' and man by choice and nature became depraved. (Belgic Confession [Articles 13-14], Canons of Dort [Third Main Point of Doctrine, Article 1-2]) Your explanation actually makes your concept of God the caricature of the monster Arminians and us Atheists have come to despise. Smile


(11-12-2013 06:17 AM)anonymous66 Wrote:  Lewis has a odd way of coming to the conclusion that God exists and that God is the God of the Bible. He basically read the Bible, and then decided that Jesus was either liar, lunatic or Lord. He didn't even consider other possibilities..... Like, I don't know, that the Bible and Christianity are based on mythology.
Also called the Lewis trilemma, as you rightly point out Jesus could be completely a myth (not a hypothesis considered in Lewis' time as far as I know) or a sophisticated construction of a typical 1st century apocaliptical jewish preacher.

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11-12-2013, 10:13 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(11-12-2013 09:58 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  So, you would subscribe to the notion that a child rapist is commiting these acts completely under gods will? It was not his choice to attack a child? And by god's grace the rapist has a chance to be forgiven for his nature? All along destroying the life of one or many innocent children? WOW! I did not think all that crap about Calvinism was anything like that - but WOW!

There isn't anything... down to the most minute action... that isn't planned by God. Sin has to be present because it's is an integral part of God's plan.

So yes, those actions are ordained by God. In a clearer understanding, because there is sin present in the world (God created it), then there is a cause and effect; therefore, there is all these abhorrent acts of sin that happen.

The rapist doesn't have a chance to be forgiven. He is either elect or not, and his forgiveness or lack thereof happen well before he was born.

(11-12-2013 09:58 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  How can you not take a hard look at yourself for accepting this thought process? How can you subjugate or serve such a warped and imaginary father figure? And how do you know so much about this figure's intentions, use for sin, and your book with which millions of others may describe so differently?

I have taken a hard look at this. In my opinion, some of the things God has ordained scare me, disgust me, and seem unjustified to me. But, this is all according to my limited knowledge and limited understanding what His plan.

If happens for a reason... and if I knew why things happened then I would be omniscient and I would be God. But, I'm not.

Likewise, it's okay that I find some of the stuff God has ordained as terrible. He gives me my desires and He has ordained that I feel that way. This is another cause and effect based on how we are designed as emotional creatures; and, because of the moral fabric that was designed for humanity.

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11-12-2013, 10:24 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(11-12-2013 07:53 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 08:37 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Would there be enough?

From you, in the post you made right before that one:


Few find it, and yet a few plus all the children equal a majority? How high is the age of accountability? 20?
Yes, it could be twenty. Consider this passage. An offering is taken which is or symbolizes a ransom and atonement for their lives, but it is only required of those twenty years old and above.

Quote:Exodus 30
11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “When you take a census of the Israelites to count them, each one must pay the Lord a ransom for his life at the time he is counted. Then no plague will come on them when you number them. 13 Each one who crosses over to those already counted is to give a half shekel,[c] according to the sanctuary shekel, which weighs twenty gerahs. This half shekel is an offering to the Lord. 14 All who cross over, those twenty years old or more, are to give an offering to the Lord. 15 The rich are not to give more than a half shekel and the poor are not to give less when you make the offering to the Lord to atone for your lives. 16 Receive the atonement money from the Israelites and use it for the service of the tent of meeting. It will be a memorial for the Israelites before the Lord, making atonement for your lives.”

That's a very specific verse about a very specific incident to use as a justification that the age of accountability (which is never explicitly mentioned in the Bible) is 20.

I think you're overstating your position that the majority of people are either explicitly or implicitly Christian.
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11-12-2013, 10:25 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(10-12-2013 01:30 PM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  Even when I was sort of a believer I never understood why god was surprised by our failings. He either created people thinking we'd be better behaved and then was surprised by our evilness or he purposely created us this way so he could scold/ send us to hell for acting the way we were programmed.
Respectfully, if you are referring to the God of the bible, your suggestion is puzzling. According to scripture, from the outset God predicted, what you describe as failure, once mankind ate of the knowledge of good and evil.
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11-12-2013, 10:28 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(11-12-2013 10:03 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 09:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  There is nothing that we do outside of God's will. If there is, it destroys God's omnipotence and subjects Him to our whims.

"we" as in me too? Or only believers such as yourself?

Everything and everyone ever in existence, past existence, or future existence.

(11-12-2013 10:08 AM)djkamilo Wrote:  Not quite a good Calvinist IMHO as a former Reformed Xtian, the Reformed confessions make it clear that depravity was not God's design, but man was made 'good' and man by choice and nature became depraved. (Belgic Confession [Articles 13-14], Canons of Dort [Third Main Point of Doctrine, Article 1-2]) Your explanation actually makes your concept of God the caricature of the monster Arminians and us Atheists have come to despise. Smile

I reject that notion. Something can't not be in God's design. That makes God short sighted and not omniscient.

Likewise, having a "choice" isn't being true to Reformed and Calvinistic theology. I'm aware of the synergistic belief that humans have a share in the regeneration process, but that's just another form of Arminianism. This is just people wanting to try and justify some type of choice in the theology. It's simply not possible if God is omnipotent. I'm also aware of the notion that God elects someone because He knew that person was going to choose Him. That's also another form of Arminianism because it's placing the choice on the human, regardless if God knows. God is still making the choice based on the human's future decision which subjugates God to humanity; destroying His omnipotence.

I've never claimed that God doesn't appear as a monster in some place. If you read the Bible and don't see this, then you're blind. I'll just refer you back to what I said about our morality, God's plan, and His autonomy.

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11-12-2013, 10:36 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(11-12-2013 10:28 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Likewise, having a "choice" isn't being true to Reformed and Calvinistic theology.
Where are your sources? The Reformed Confessions cited above disagree with you.

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