Why is god surprised by our behavior?
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11-12-2013, 01:54 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(11-12-2013 12:48 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Since God is autonomous, it's just His plan. He isn't subjected to morality. The only morality that He is subjected to is His own... and since it's His own, it's not necessarily a morality. Morality has to have a governing standard to base itself against.

Just because God is autonomous doesn't mean that he isn't subject to morality, maybe you are using a different meaning for autonomy. Autonomy comes from the greek αὐτο - self , νόμος - law. It's self governance. It doesn't exclude the entity from being immoral. Just because God is by your definition a supreme (a more complex, powerful, etc) entity it doesn't exclude him from morality, it's a leap of faith to say that it does.

Morality doesn't necessarily need a GOVERNING standard (implying a law). Your notion of morality to quote chippy "has been debased by the Jewish divine command theory of morality". It just has. Study "virtue ethics" without the divine command glass and you'll see that as well.

Lastly I deem your divine determinism to be an atrocious wish to become a slave of a morally dubious unprovable and unlikely master who coincidentally resembles the moral expectations of the people that claimed to know what he was like.

“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.” ― Richard Pryor
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11-12-2013, 02:42 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(11-12-2013 10:13 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 09:58 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  How can you not take a hard look at yourself for accepting this thought process? How can you subjugate or serve such a warped and imaginary father figure? And how do you know so much about this figure's intentions, use for sin, and your book with which millions of others may describe so differently?

I have taken a hard look at this. In my opinion, some of the things God has ordained scare me, disgust me, and seem unjustified to me. But, this is all according to my limited knowledge and limited understanding what His plan.

First of all, thanks for your honesty and replies to my questions. I am genuinely intrigued by these decisions and dedication, so I don't mean to come off as just wanting to poke shots and argue. As others have said and asked - you seem very level headed; which begs the question as to why is there this desire or need to acknowledge and glorify something that disgusts and scares you, while also acting unjustifed and beyond your understanding?

(11-12-2013 01:54 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  Lastly I deem your divine determinism to be an atrocious wish to become a slave of a morally dubious unprovable and unlikely master who coincidentally resembles the moral expectations of the people that claimed to know what he was like.

One of the best single (run on) sentences I have read in a long time!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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11-12-2013, 11:03 PM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(11-12-2013 07:35 AM)alpha male Wrote:  You completely ignored my point, which was an age of accountability doctrine. This means that those who die before reaching a maturity sufficient to be judged are automatically saved. This isn’t explicitly stated in the Bible, as some people would kill children thinking they were doing good. But, it can be indirectly derived.

And you either don't understand or deliberately misunderstand.

The overwhelmingly vast majority of people choose wrong once they are able to do so.

This is necessarily as God desires.

Why? It seems extraordinarily pointless. Omnipotence by definition obviates the need for testing one's own creations. It's tragically far from being coherent.

(11-12-2013 07:35 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:Which, indeed, says that God doesn't give a shit about most people.

“Doesn’t give a shit” is ambiguous. God cares for all people in that Christ took the sin of the world upon himself. However, God does allow people to reject that and claim responsibility for their own sin.

People - who are as God intends - make a decision - with minds as God intends - based on evidence - available to them as God intends - and for all that most of them choose wrong - which is necessarily as God intends.

They are fucked from the get go - as God intends.

What's the point?

(11-12-2013 07:35 AM)alpha male Wrote:  Some – perhaps the majority, as noted above – are saved. I like this life and look forward to the next. Why should God forego creation because some people were going to bitch about the way they were created?




(11-12-2013 07:35 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:Are you seriously claiming that a majority of Christians do not believe in an all-loving God?
I’m seriously claiming that most Christians don’t use the word omnibenevolent, as I stated. As to “all-loving,” I don’t know, I’d need to see a survey. Doesn’t matter much to me as I defend the God of the Bible as best as I can interpret it, not the god of the majority.

We both agree some people hold that belief - and that those people draw that belief from the exact same place you do, nevermind that it disagrees.

That is the more relevant aspect.

(11-12-2013 07:35 AM)alpha male Wrote:  It’s not benevolent of me to make my kids do their homework although they don’t want to, but it’s good of me to do so.

That's pedantry, and you know it. Tongue

But it won't work, since you can't argue that wishing well by them cannot be construed to include doing what is good for them.

(11-12-2013 07:35 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
Quote:Do you acribe omnibenevolence to your conception of God?
No. The flood certainly didn’t seem benevolent to those who perished in it.

Indeed. Pretty clear regardless you didn't hold such a view.

How about all-knowing? How about all-powerful?

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12-12-2013, 12:01 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(11-12-2013 01:03 AM)Yasmin Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 12:25 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  And does it come as a surprise to you that CS Lewis pulled shit out of his own ass too?

I wonder, would you care to actually explain your issue with what Lewis wrote? If you disagree enough to say something like that why not say why and actually help the conversation move along a bit?


What part of It's Made-Up Bullshit do you fail to understand?

Quote:Anyway, I love Lewis because he's one of the more honest Christian writers pathological liars.

fixed that for ya.


Quote:If you read 'A grief observed,' [/quoe]

Why on earth would I go out of my way to seek out the bullshit musings of a pathological liar.

[quote]he doesn't hold back on his struggles, anger and doubts; or how he overcomes them. Some writers seem to write about suffering and doubt in a way that's almost afraid to admit how it can overpower you- Lewis doesn't shy away from it

Really. Don't. Give a fuck.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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12-12-2013, 12:03 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(11-12-2013 07:11 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 04:31 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  Isn't it true that if a murder accepts god/jesus/both at the last minute (is punishing people for not accepting you considered needy? I'm not sure...) he gets chocolate cake for eternity? Hmm.
In the Christian plan, the crime was paid for, by Jesus. Chocolate cake for eternity is a matter of grace.

We all already know the bullshit mythology. Did you miss the memo that we don't believe that shit?

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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12-12-2013, 12:05 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(11-12-2013 07:14 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 04:43 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  So it is not benevolent, it is MALevolent. Which we all knew in the first place.
Two words: false dichotomy.

Not at all. Even a casual reading of your mythology shows your imaginary deity-character to be malevolent as fuck.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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12-12-2013, 12:07 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
alpha dork:
Quote:You completely ignored my point, which was an age of accountability doctrine. This means that those who die before reaching a maturity sufficient to be judged are automatically saved. This isn’t explicitly stated in the Bible, as some people would kill children thinking they were doing good. But, it can be indirectly derived.


In other words, it's made-up bullshit. Your story evolved in response to criticism over its preposterousness. This is what happens with pathological liars.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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12-12-2013, 01:11 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(11-12-2013 09:17 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 02:51 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  To KC and AM,
You state that "man did not create original sin - God did"; and "he created us this way to be our savior". What does this have to do with the argument of the OP? If this is the case, then why create us with sin and in need of a savior if only for obedience and power control? Once again, you both support the fact of this god figure being a flat out jerk.

We actually have quite different views... can't really lump us together.

However, I will reiterate what AM said about about the OP not considering all the different interpretations.

In my Calvinistic view, sin is a VITAL part of the plan that has to happen in order to have elect. Yes, that does mean that God can be considered a "jerk", but under the assumption that God is autonomous (as I believe); God cannot be judged by any of our standards or understandings because He is omniscient and we only have limited knowledge.

(10-12-2013 02:51 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  And if I recall, there are many instances where god justifies his wrath in the Bible with some sort of preface like - "oh no, WTF, my ceation has screwed up so there needs to be gruesome violence and suffering to get things back on track". So one can interpret that man has done the unexpected (and surprised god) on more than one occasion - no?

Zero sense to me!!

It depends on the context of the event. Please cite.

(10-12-2013 03:10 PM)alpha male Wrote:  That's my point. If you're only rejecting the literal creation story, then on questions dealing with morality, you're in the same boat as the literalist. For instance, you don't need to defend a literal worldwide flood, but you still need to deal with the message that God finds the whole world deserving of death.

I still fail to see the problem. I've offered my reconciliation for that. There is no crisis of morality here. God can do whatever He wants however He wants. It's according to His plan. He is autonomous and cannot be judged by our morality.

(10-12-2013 03:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  God didn't create sin simply because sin is something that does not exist in nature. Sin is just a term/made up word.
God gave moral agency. If I decided to lie it is my action(my choice) and not something that God created.

That's what I said... Sin didn't come about until God gave humanity the knowledge of good and evil. It's not present in nature as everything else is amoral.

Likewise, as I interpret the Bible, I see that God predestines all, and that we do not have choices. If that's the case, then God had to create sin.

(10-12-2013 03:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  Again God gave moral agency- freedom to chose the right. If God FORCED Adam to sin then God would be evil and He would be guilty of Adam's sin not Adam.
Adam was not forced by anybody. Even Satan can not force us to do evil. WE make this choice and we are to blame when we do evil.

I don't believe in choice. I also don't believe in a literal Adam. In any case, even though God did force humanity to sin, that doesn't make God evil. Again, that's according to human standards. In order for God's plan to come to fruition, there had to be evil. Because of the cause and effect that God ordained, humanity would now sin.

There is nothing that we do outside of God's will. If there is, it destroys God's omnipotence and subjects Him to our whims.

Quote:Evil is eternal/ Evil is from eternity to eternity. Sin becomes a part of our nature only when we do our first evil/sin. Newborns are free of sin, they are perfect(spiritually) as angels in heaven.
Sin of Adam is not on us. We only inherit physical death and we are subjects to sin. It means we are born in a place were we can be tempted and where we get imperfect physical bodies which have weaknesses.

No human is perfect. That's clearly stated in the Bible. All people are depraved and sinful because of a sin nature. It's only by God's grace and choice that some are forgiven of this sin nature.

So no, according to what the Bible says, newborns are not born without sin.

You know, when you wrote that letter to your church friend the other day, I ad such high hopes that you were coming to some sense of sanity.


I hate to say that you have dashed my hopes on the rocks.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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12-12-2013, 01:13 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(11-12-2013 10:13 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  The rapist doesn't have a chance to be forgiven. He is either elect or not, and his forgiveness or lack thereof happen well before he was born.

I'm sorry, KC, that's just batshit crazy. Really.


Fucking think about it, please? Really.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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12-12-2013, 02:21 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(12-12-2013 12:01 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
Quote:Anyway, I love Lewis because he's one of the more honest Christian writers pathological liars.

fixed that for ya.
Thanks, but that really wasn't necessary. Any particular reason for calling him that or is it simply your default position for writers that you've never read?

(12-12-2013 12:01 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  What part of It's Made-Up Bullshit do you fail to understand?

Why on earth would I go out of my way to seek out the bullshit musings of a pathological liar.
Well you've obviously sought it out enough to draw such a decisive position about him. If you're going to continue to assert that you're somehow coming from a more rational position at least give me more evidence than your ability to abuse the writings of someone that you've never sought out?
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