Why is god surprised by our behavior?
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12-12-2013, 07:36 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(11-12-2013 11:03 PM)cjlr Wrote:  And you either don't understand or deliberately misunderstand.

The overwhelmingly vast majority of people choose wrong once they are able to do so.

This is necessarily as God desires.
I disagree. It’s necessarily as God permits.
Quote:Why? It seems extraordinarily pointless. Omnipotence by definition obviates the need for testing one's own creations. It's tragically far from being coherent.
God allows people to do wrong in order to make known qualities of his such as righteousness, wrath, mercy and grace.
Quote:We both agree some people hold that belief - and that those people draw that belief from the exact same place you do, nevermind that it disagrees.

That is the more relevant aspect.
What’s the problem? God wants us to use our minds and doesn’t spoon-feed the final answers to us.
Proverbs 25
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,
But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

It’s interesting that atheists complain that we sometimes reach different conclusions, yet also call us mindless sheep.

Quote:
(11-12-2013 07:35 AM)alpha male Wrote:  It’s not benevolent of me to make my kids do their homework although they don’t want to, but it’s good of me to do so.

That's pedantry, and you know it. Tongue
No, it’s a valid point.
Quote:But it won't work, since you can't argue that wishing well by them cannot be construed to include doing what is good for them.
Sometimes a benevolent act is also a good act. Sometimes it isn’t. I’m not arguing that they’re mutually exclusive.

Quote:
How about all-knowing? How about all-powerful?
All-knowing, yes. Most English translations refer to God as almighty (omnipotent is rarely used), so I go with almighty.
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12-12-2013, 08:09 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(12-12-2013 07:36 AM)alpha male Wrote:  What’s the problem? God wants us to use our minds and doesn’t spoon-feed the final answers to us.
Proverbs 25
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,
But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

You realize quoting Proverbs isn't going to carry much weight here......on an Atheist Forum......... right?

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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12-12-2013, 09:19 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(12-12-2013 08:09 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  You realize quoting Proverbs isn't going to carry much weight here......on an Atheist Forum......... right?
Yes, but it's fair game nonetheless. Sadly, the tendency lately on atheist forums is for an atheist to start an argument against the concept of God based on the Bible; Christian uses the bible to defend; second atheist notes that the Bible doesn't carry much weight or some such.
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12-12-2013, 09:29 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(12-12-2013 09:19 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(12-12-2013 08:09 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  You realize quoting Proverbs isn't going to carry much weight here......on an Atheist Forum......... right?
Yes, but it's fair game nonetheless. Sadly, the tendency lately on atheist forums is for an atheist to start an argument against the concept of God based on the Bible; Christian uses the bible to defend; second atheist notes that the Bible doesn't carry much weight or some such.

You may feel grilled by me at this point. But my questions to you were sincere.
I will reiterate that you are attempting to explain the impossible - bible in hand as your book of instructions or not.

I'm begging off here and will just Read your posts for awhile. Maybe them not making sense to me is my fault -not your explanation.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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12-12-2013, 09:34 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(12-12-2013 01:13 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 10:13 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  The rapist doesn't have a chance to be forgiven. He is either elect or not, and his forgiveness or lack thereof happen well before he was born.

I'm sorry, KC, that's just batshit crazy. Really.


Fucking think about it, please? Really.

I have. I know others think it's crazy.

/shrug

It doesn't define me, though. I let my actions and interactions with people do that.

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12-12-2013, 09:35 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(12-12-2013 09:29 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  You may feel grilled by me at this point. But my questions to you were sincere.
I will reiterate that you are attempting to explain the impossible - bible in hand as your book of instructions or not.
I'll reiterate that when the Bible is used to make a charge against a concept of God, it's fair to use the Bible in defense of that concept.
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12-12-2013, 09:40 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(12-12-2013 09:35 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(12-12-2013 09:29 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  You may feel grilled by me at this point. But my questions to you were sincere.
I will reiterate that you are attempting to explain the impossible - bible in hand as your book of instructions or not.
I'll reiterate that when the Bible is used to make a charge against a concept of God, it's fair to use the Bible in defense of that concept.

Ah........ *nods* I get that. Fair enough.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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12-12-2013, 09:50 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(12-12-2013 01:13 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 10:13 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  The rapist doesn't have a chance to be forgiven. He is either elect or not, and his forgiveness or lack thereof happen well before he was born.

I'm sorry, KC, that's just batshit crazy. Really.


Fucking think about it, please? Really.

One thing I like about Calvinism is that at least it's internally consistent. They believe in a fairly traditional definition of omnipotent and recognize the impossibility for omnipotence and free will to simultaneously exist. Rather than back peddle and try to dilute omnipotence, they just double down on it and throw out free will. So, while it's not the Christianity that most people accept, and it's still based on non-falsifiable assumptions, I'd actually be tempted to call it less crazy than more mainstream versions of Christianity.

Granted, I find this belief system creepy and that version of God horrifies me. I also find "free will Christianity" not very compelling and often just as creepy for different reasons, so there's that.
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12-12-2013, 10:51 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
okay I get that the preordained stuff is just gonna be sisyphean to discuss KC, but I want to know if the elect is given vouchers every year and if there is a limited supply? Would you also have to be a member of the official Jesus fan club to be even considered? That is..there are all these other 20,000+ denominations who claim to be the official Jesus Fan club.

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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12-12-2013, 10:56 AM
RE: Why is god surprised by our behavior?
(12-12-2013 10:51 AM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  okay I get that the preordained stuff is just gonna be sisyphean to discuss KC, but I want to know if the elect is given vouchers every year and if there is a limited supply? Would you also have to be a member of the official Jesus fan club to be even considered? That is..there are all these other 20,000+ denominations who claim to be the official Jesus Fan club.

Just so you know, I usually actively ignore snark and am under no obligation to respond.

But as for your question, no one knows who is elect nor the limit to it. That is something only God knows.

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