Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
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12-11-2015, 09:08 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(12-11-2015 08:13 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Well...I guess for me personally, I have no personal reason not to believe in God.

This thinking really does open up a can of worms in my opinion. You could as easily say I have no personal reason not to believe in ghosts or sasquatch.

(12-11-2015 08:13 AM)‘jason_delisle Wrote:  There is absolutely no benefit for me to reject God.

And I would challenge you that there is. From where I stand believing in something that has never been proven to exist is a disquieting proposition. I personally see absolutely no benefit to reject Santa Claus but that hardly keeps me from continuing the fantasy in my head.

Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

(12-11-2015 08:13 AM)‘jason_delisle Wrote:  Now I have seen plenty of evidence from secular sources that supports the claims in the bible.

Please, do provide.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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12-11-2015, 09:23 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
As I often point out, one of the top geneticists in the country, Dr. Francis S. Collins (head of the Human Genome Project), is an evangelical Christian and fierce proponent of evolutionary biology, unguided by God, as the method of Creation. He contends that it is the duty of Christians to understand how science actually works because science is a method, not a thing, and what we discover via the Scientific Method is, in his words (paraphrased), discovering the fingerprints of the Creator.

It's okay that Iron Age tribal sheepherders thought humans were magically molded from silica-clay, and didn't know that taking the rib of a 44XY male is pretty much the *worst possible* way to make a 44XX female. It's not okay to think that after the discoveries of the last two centuries of science.

And that South Park episode was hilarious!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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12-11-2015, 09:28 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(12-11-2015 05:20 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(11-11-2015 10:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no evidence for that idea. Drinking Beverage
No evidence to support that I believe something?

Don't be a twat. Dodgy

There is no evidence for theistic evolution. The evidence for evolution stands on its own without any gods.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-11-2015, 09:29 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(12-11-2015 06:45 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I understand your point. As you probably know already, most theist don't rely too heavily on evidence. Unfortunately I am no exception. TongueSmile

That's just fucking sad. Drinking Beverage

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12-11-2015, 09:30 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(12-11-2015 07:18 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(11-11-2015 05:49 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I know it sounded like a rhetorical "throwaway" line, when I said I don't understand what's so hard to grasp about evolution, but I really mean that. It's plainly, blatantly, unquestionably true. Quite literally in the first week of any course on genetics, you learn to mathematically demonstrate that, in any reproducing population, the gene frequency will change with every generation, and that this will result in a "new" gene pool each generation, meaning evolution is (again, literally) mathematically inevitable.

What I think harms people is they only teach genetics in highschool with a brief lesson about Mendel and the Punnet square, which of course involves only two parents producing a group of offspring, which unfortunately gives students the impression that genetics is only about individuals breeding, rather than populations. Once you understand how population genetics functions, I cannot grasp how anyone could argue against it... especially when you get into the specifics of how DNA operates and why we know certain heritable sequences point to common ancestry.
So... Basically it is like this?

https://youtu.be/BL9S-TUikfg

Sarcasm. I love it.

You do realize that that video is mocking your position.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-11-2015, 09:37 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(12-11-2015 09:23 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  As I often point out, one of the top geneticists in the country, Dr. Francis S. Collins (head of the Human Genome Project), is an evangelical Christian and fierce proponent of evolutionary biology, unguided by God, as the method of Creation. He contends that it is the duty of Christians to understand how science actually works because science is a method, not a thing, and what we discover via the Scientific Method is, in his words (paraphrased), discovering the fingerprints of the Creator.

It's okay that Iron Age tribal sheepherders thought humans were magically molded from silica-clay, and didn't know that taking the rib of a 44XY male is pretty much the *worst possible* way to make a 44XX female. It's not okay to think that after the discoveries of the last two centuries of science.

And that South Park episode was hilarious!

The key point is "fierce proponent of evolutionary biology, unguided by God".
That is not theistic evolution. He has successfully compartmentalized his knowledge and his beliefs.

I don't see how he can stand the clanging and clattering of all that cognitive dissonance going on, but I guess he just turns a deaf ear to it. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-11-2015, 09:53 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(12-11-2015 09:08 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 08:13 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Well...I guess for me personally, I have no personal reason not to believe in God.

This thinking really does open up a can of worms in my opinion. You could as easily say I have no personal reason not to believe in ghosts or sasquatch.

(12-11-2015 08:13 AM)‘jason_delisle Wrote:  There is absolutely no benefit for me to reject God.

And I would challenge you that there is. From where I stand believing in something that has never been proven to exist is a disquieting proposition. I personally see absolutely no benefit to reject Santa Claus but that hardly keeps me from continuing the fantasy in my head.

Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

(12-11-2015 08:13 AM)‘jason_delisle Wrote:  Now I have seen plenty of evidence from secular sources that supports the claims in the bible.

Please, do provide.
Now for the record, the intent of the conversation between you and I is not to debate atheism vs Christianity. This is only a discussion to explain why I personally chose to accept Christianity and I am no way trying to persuade anyone to follow my beliefs.

First, 1 Corinthians 13 is one of my personal favorite chapters in the bible. However verse 11 is focused on spiritual maturity so I do not think it is appropriate for your point. However... Matthew 18:3 "...Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." This scripture talks about humility and being dependent on God and have faith in God like a child is dependent on their parents. But that is a topic for another day.

For now all I ask is that we are more specific. You ask me to provide evidence but let's focus on one specific topic. What is one specific claim in the bible that you want evidence for?
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12-11-2015, 10:44 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(12-11-2015 09:53 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 09:08 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  This thinking really does open up a can of worms in my opinion. You could as easily say I have no personal reason not to believe in ghosts or sasquatch.


And I would challenge you that there is. From where I stand believing in something that has never been proven to exist is a disquieting proposition. I personally see absolutely no benefit to reject Santa Claus but that hardly keeps me from continuing the fantasy in my head.

Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.


Please, do provide.
Now for the record, the intent of the conversation between you and I is not to debate atheism vs Christianity. This is only a discussion to explain why I personally chose to accept Christianity and I am no way trying to persuade anyone to follow my beliefs.

First, 1 Corinthians 13 is one of my personal favorite chapters in the bible. However verse 11 is focused on spiritual maturity so I do not think it is appropriate for your point. However... Matthew 18:3 "...Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." This scripture talks about humility and being dependent on God and have faith in God like a child is dependent on their parents. But that is a topic for another day.

For now all I ask is that we are more specific. You ask me to provide evidence but let's focus on one specific topic. What is one specific claim in the bible that you want evidence for?

Corinthians 11 is open to interpretation as is the entire bible. You say it refers to spiritual maturity, I say it refers to maturity in general.

I have no idea what you were referring to when you said that there are many examples of the secular confirming the Bible. I'm asking you to provide one or two.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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12-11-2015, 11:00 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(12-11-2015 10:44 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 09:53 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Now for the record, the intent of the conversation between you and I is not to debate atheism vs Christianity. This is only a discussion to explain why I personally chose to accept Christianity and I am no way trying to persuade anyone to follow my beliefs.

First, 1 Corinthians 13 is one of my personal favorite chapters in the bible. However verse 11 is focused on spiritual maturity so I do not think it is appropriate for your point. However... Matthew 18:3 "...Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." This scripture talks about humility and being dependent on God and have faith in God like a child is dependent on their parents. But that is a topic for another day.

For now all I ask is that we are more specific. You ask me to provide evidence but let's focus on one specific topic. What is one specific claim in the bible that you want evidence for?

Corinthians 11 is open to interpretation as is the entire bible. You say it refers to spiritual maturity, I say it refers to maturity in general.

I have no idea what you were referring to when you said that there are many examples of the secular confirming the Bible. I'm asking you to provide one or two.
I would first mention secular historians during the time period such as Titus Flavius Josephus as a start. Although archeology can not prove that what Jesus said was true but it can however confirm that a lot of what is said that occurred does match up with the bible to enhance its credibility.
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12-11-2015, 11:12 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(12-11-2015 11:00 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 10:44 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Corinthians 11 is open to interpretation as is the entire bible. You say it refers to spiritual maturity, I say it refers to maturity in general.

I have no idea what you were referring to when you said that there are many examples of the secular confirming the Bible. I'm asking you to provide one or two.
I would first mention secular historians during the time period such as Titus Flavius Josephus as a start. Although archeology can not prove that what Jesus said was true but it can however confirm that a lot of what is said that occurred does match up with the bible to enhance its credibility.

The Titus Flavius Josephus who wasn't even born until after the alleged events in the Gospels? That Josephus?

"The general scholarly view is that while the Testimonium Flavianum is most likely not authentic in its entirety, it is broadly agreed upon that it originally consisted of an authentic nucleus, which was then subject to Christian expansion/alteration."

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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