Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
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12-11-2015, 03:32 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
I'm curious about what historical evidence you found. My understanding is that the historical evidence offered by people like Josephus and Tacitus mostly boils down to this:

That there was a cult of Jesus-followers / -worshipers around the year 100 CE, in which is recognizable the beginnings of the religion of Christianity, even if some of the doctrines (eg, the Nicene creed, the prohibition against suicide, etc) had yet to evolve.

That many of the locations described in the Bible existed, as described by the contemporaries who authored the thing.

That some of the rituals and practices described in the Bible (eg, passover, crucifixion, census, etc) were practiced in fact.

Is there any historical evidence beyond this? Because I have absolutely no problem accepting that the Christian religion was getting started around the turn of the 2nd century, that they believed many of the supernatural claims that would be found in modern Christianity, and that they knew about the cities and practices of their time and place.
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12-11-2015, 03:39 PM (This post was last modified: 12-11-2015 03:42 PM by jason_delisle.)
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(12-11-2015 03:21 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 03:09 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  So the reason why you believe that Jesus dying for your sins was a lie is because you think it's BS? It doesn't seem like a very convincing argument. It's like saying I don't believe in evolution because evolution is BS. Give me a specific example. What specific detail about the death of Jesus do you not believe and why?

I said it *feels* like a lie. And I detailed why. You're telling me that the provenance of the Bible, the lack of verified evidence for the story contained therein and the magical elements of the said story don't give you pause? You're telling me that it's plausible to you that some universe creator cares enough that you wank to torture you post-mortem?

If you want me to say something like "I believe the resurrection didn't happen" then yes, I believe it didn't happen. Go on. Hit me with "but you can't prove that" Rolleyes
There is evidence (although some can be debated) that there was in fact a man named Jesus who was a Jewish rabbi, who claimed to be the son of God, who arguably predicted his death, who was executed, and claimed that he was "the way, the truth, and the life". Can I prove that what he taught was true? No. Is there evidence that he existed and claimed to have died for your sins? Yes

So would you say that your question is "Is it true that Jesus was the embodiment of God who died for your sins or is he a haratic who claimed to be the embodiment of God who died for his claim"?
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12-11-2015, 03:40 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(12-11-2015 03:22 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 01:20 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Nooooooo! Not brown! I love brown! Why? . I got your point just being silly. Like I said. I have asked myself the same questions you and almost everyone else have brought up and I have found answers that made sense to me but probably not everyone else.
If you like brown, you must be crazy!
Smile

On a serious note, I get what you're saying. I wasn't criticizing you personally, just that line of thinking. You're right that it won't make as much sense to me. As long as you've thought about them, that's more than most theists. Since you and I are both recovering Catholics, we know what it's like to embrace crazy.
Yeah. Lol
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12-11-2015, 04:41 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(12-11-2015 03:09 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 02:56 PM)morondog Wrote:  When you consider the batshit insane concept that is a sin - that some uber-being is pissed with me and will hurt me *after I am dead* because I did something allegedly bad like stroked myself at night.

Add to that the idea that a human/god hybrid getting nailed to a piece of wood somehow appeases the uber-being - provided that I believe that this event occured and that the somehow-still-living human-god can "save" me.

And then consider that the "evidence" for this is that lots of people believe it and if you navel gaze you too can convince yourself, or alternatively you can read a book of extremely questionable provenance which purports to describe events surrounding the death of the human-god.

And *then* think about who stands to gain if you do believe this ridiculous claim.

How the fuck does *anyone* manage to convince themselves of the truth of this?
So the reason why you believe that Jesus dying for your sins was a lie is because you think it's BS? It doesn't seem like a very convincing argument. It's like saying I don't believe in evolution because evolution is BS. Give me a specific example. What specific detail about the death of Jesus do you not believe and why?

What makes it BS is what allegedly precedes and follows. Y'know, virgin birth, miracles, rising from the dead. That stuff.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-11-2015, 05:29 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(12-11-2015 09:30 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 07:18 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  So... Basically it is like this?

https://youtu.be/BL9S-TUikfg

Sarcasm. I love it.

You do realize that that video is mocking your position.
Yes and I find it hilarious. I love South Park .
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12-11-2015, 05:51 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(12-11-2015 03:39 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 03:21 PM)morondog Wrote:  I said it *feels* like a lie. And I detailed why. You're telling me that the provenance of the Bible, the lack of verified evidence for the story contained therein and the magical elements of the said story don't give you pause? You're telling me that it's plausible to you that some universe creator cares enough that you wank to torture you post-mortem?

If you want me to say something like "I believe the resurrection didn't happen" then yes, I believe it didn't happen. Go on. Hit me with "but you can't prove that" Rolleyes
There is evidence (although some can be debated) that there was in fact a man named Jesus who was a Jewish rabbi, who claimed to be the son of God, who arguably predicted his death, who was executed, and claimed that he was "the way, the truth, and the life". Can I prove that what he taught was true? No. Is there evidence that he existed and claimed to have died for your sins? Yes

So would you say that your question is "Is it true that Jesus was the embodiment of God who died for your sins or is he a haratic who claimed to be the embodiment of God who died for his claim"?

The only evidence of most of those claims comes from the Gospels, and it is generally agreed by most Biblical scholars that those were written many years after Jesus' death, and probably by people who never met him or knew him -- i.e., they are hearsay. I have very little confidence that Jesus (if he even existed) claimed to be God or predicted his own death. And even if he did, so what? Lots of people have claimed to be God, including the Roman emperors of Jesus' own time.
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12-11-2015, 06:10 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(12-11-2015 05:51 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 03:39 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  There is evidence (although some can be debated) that there was in fact a man named Jesus who was a Jewish rabbi, who claimed to be the son of God, who arguably predicted his death, who was executed, and claimed that he was "the way, the truth, and the life". Can I prove that what he taught was true? No. Is there evidence that he existed and claimed to have died for your sins? Yes

So would you say that your question is "Is it true that Jesus was the embodiment of God who died for your sins or is he a haratic who claimed to be the embodiment of God who died for his claim"?

The only evidence of most of those claims comes from the Gospels, and it is generally agreed by most Biblical scholars that those were written many years after Jesus' death, and probably by people who never met him or knew him -- i.e., they are hearsay. I have very little confidence that Jesus (if he even existed) claimed to be God or predicted his own death. And even if he did, so what? Lots of people have claimed to be God, including the Roman emperors of Jesus' own time.
So why did all the apostles including Paul (with the exception of John), allow themselves to be martyrs for something that did not happen? I mean... Apparently they are the only ones who knew Jesus personally so why would they die for him?
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12-11-2015, 06:13 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(12-11-2015 06:10 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  So why did all the apostles including Paul (with the exception of John), allow themselves to be martyrs for something that did not happen?

Whoa hang on, we do not even have proof these apostles existed.

Getting away from them though, and staying on the martyr idea; Have you ever read Pliny the younger's letter to Trajan about the Christians?

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12-11-2015, 06:17 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(12-11-2015 03:09 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  So the reason why you believe that Jesus dying for your sins was a lie is because you think it's BS? It doesn't seem like a very convincing argument. It's like saying I don't believe in evolution because evolution is BS. Give me a specific example. What specific detail about the death of Jesus do you not believe and why?
1. There was no Jesus. There might have been a Yeshua, but certainly no Jesus.
2. What is a sin? Does a god have to exist or a morality code have to exist in order for people to sin?
3. How does a person die for other people's sins? Is a specific magical ritual performed? Some special magical words spoken? Or does any death count? All people die eventually, what is special about this death?
4. There is no evidence that Yeshua was killed as part of a magical sacrificial ritual.
5. What is the value in a death, how is it seen as a commodity? Why would an all perfect god (i.e. all complete) have a requirement for someone's death? What value does the god get out of it? Psst - There is no value in blood sacrifices, it was a custom invented by superstitious, confused and ignorant people.
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12-11-2015, 06:21 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(12-11-2015 03:39 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  So would you say that your question is "Is it true that Jesus was the embodiment of God who died for your sins or is he a haratic who claimed to be the embodiment of God who died for his claim"?

I ask myself this every morning as I brush my teeth. Except I doubt the Jews are gonna call for my death. ... And how the fuck does your autocorrect come up with "haratic". Near as I can tell it's some sorta character in a game. Your autocorrect really really sucks ass.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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