Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
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13-11-2015, 07:36 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
https://youtu.be/kn200lvmTZc

I am not avoiding anyone. I just got a lot going on at work. For now I will just say that I can never truly know what it is like for an atheist. All I can do is try to put myself in their shoes. The video above best describes how I imagine what goes through the mind of an atheist when the are surrounded by theist.

I did avoid the questions because once I realized that it was turning into an atheist vs christian I wanted to get things back under control.

If you still want me to answer those questions I would be happy to. I just want to make sure that it is understood that I am only explaining what I believe and what many other Christians are taught.
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13-11-2015, 08:33 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(12-11-2015 06:10 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 05:51 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  The only evidence of most of those claims comes from the Gospels, and it is generally agreed by most Biblical scholars that those were written many years after Jesus' death, and probably by people who never met him or knew him -- i.e., they are hearsay. I have very little confidence that Jesus (if he even existed) claimed to be God or predicted his own death. And even if he did, so what? Lots of people have claimed to be God, including the Roman emperors of Jesus' own time.
So why did all the apostles including Paul (with the exception of John), allow themselves to be martyrs for something that did not happen? I mean... Apparently they are the only ones who knew Jesus personally so why would they die for him?

Several people have addressed this claim already, but I don't know if anyone has mentioned my main objection to this line of argument. Of the 12 original apostles, the Bible mentions the martyrdom of James, and implies the future martyrdom of Peter and the non-martyrdom of John. That leaves 9 others about which the Bible says nothing one way or the other. There is also nothing in the Bible about Paul's death. The tradition that all the apostles except John were martyred is something that is claimed by the Church. It is not in the Bible, and I've never seen any evidence of it outside the Bible either. And we know that the Church freely played fast and loose with the facts in the first few centuries AD -- they admitted as much. So I am not convinced that any of them actually were martyred, and even less convinced that 11 of the 12 were.
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13-11-2015, 08:45 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(13-11-2015 08:33 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 06:10 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  So why did all the apostles including Paul (with the exception of John), allow themselves to be martyrs for something that did not happen? I mean... Apparently they are the only ones who knew Jesus personally so why would they die for him?

Several people have addressed this claim already, but I don't know if anyone has mentioned my main objection to this line of argument. Of the 12 original apostles, the Bible mentions the martyrdom of James, and implies the future martyrdom of Peter and the non-martyrdom of John. That leaves 9 others about which the Bible says nothing one way or the other. There is also nothing in the Bible about Paul's death. The tradition that all the apostles except John were martyred is something that is claimed by the Church. It is not in the Bible, and I've never seen any evidence of it outside the Bible either. And we know that the Church freely played fast and loose with the facts in the first few centuries AD -- they admitted as much. So I am not convinced that any of them actually were martyred, and even less convinced that 11 of the 12 were.
Very well. Thank you.
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13-11-2015, 08:58 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(13-11-2015 08:33 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 06:10 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  So why did all the apostles including Paul (with the exception of John), allow themselves to be martyrs for something that did not happen? I mean... Apparently they are the only ones who knew Jesus personally so why would they die for him?

Several people have addressed this claim already, but I don't know if anyone has mentioned my main objection to this line of argument. Of the 12 original apostles, the Bible mentions the martyrdom of James, and implies the future martyrdom of Peter and the non-martyrdom of John. That leaves 9 others about which the Bible says nothing one way or the other. There is also nothing in the Bible about Paul's death. The tradition that all the apostles except John were martyred is something that is claimed by the Church. It is not in the Bible, and I've never seen any evidence of it outside the Bible either. And we know that the Church freely played fast and loose with the facts in the first few centuries AD -- they admitted as much. So I am not convinced that any of them actually were martyred, and even less convinced that 11 of the 12 were.

What I don't get is who is James-Brother of Jesus supposedly in Catholic church doctrine? He can't be a son of the perpetual virgin Mary, so is brother just supposed to be some formal or casual companionship term? it's a strange phrase to have to work around for some unneeded immaculate concept.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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13-11-2015, 09:10 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(13-11-2015 08:58 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(13-11-2015 08:33 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Several people have addressed this claim already, but I don't know if anyone has mentioned my main objection to this line of argument. Of the 12 original apostles, the Bible mentions the martyrdom of James, and implies the future martyrdom of Peter and the non-martyrdom of John. That leaves 9 others about which the Bible says nothing one way or the other. There is also nothing in the Bible about Paul's death. The tradition that all the apostles except John were martyred is something that is claimed by the Church. It is not in the Bible, and I've never seen any evidence of it outside the Bible either. And we know that the Church freely played fast and loose with the facts in the first few centuries AD -- they admitted as much. So I am not convinced that any of them actually were martyred, and even less convinced that 11 of the 12 were.

What I don't get is who is James-Brother of Jesus supposedly in Catholic church doctrine? He can't be a son of the perpetual virgin Mary, so is brother just supposed to be some formal or casual companionship term? it's a strange phrase to have to work around for some unneeded immaculate concept.
One of the reasons why I left the Catholic Church. Mary had several other children with Joseph.
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13-11-2015, 09:22 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(13-11-2015 07:36 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  If you still want me to answer those questions I would be happy to. I just want to make sure that it is understood that I am only explaining what I believe and what many other Christians are taught.

As I said, what you believe is far less important and interesting than why. If you aren't willing to delve into why you accept the claims you will never understand why atheists reject them.

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13-11-2015, 09:55 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(13-11-2015 09:22 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(13-11-2015 07:36 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  If you still want me to answer those questions I would be happy to. I just want to make sure that it is understood that I am only explaining what I believe and what many other Christians are taught.

As I said, what you believe is far less important and interesting than why. If you aren't willing to delve into why you accept the claims you will never understand why atheists reject them.
We are still talking about post 149 right? I just want to make sure it is clear that all I intend to do is use scripture to explain why his comments were inaccurate to Christian doctrine. I understand that you and many others don't believe the bible but from what I have gathered, the question is regarding what Christians believe not if their beliefs are true.
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13-11-2015, 10:08 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(13-11-2015 09:55 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(13-11-2015 09:22 AM)unfogged Wrote:  As I said, what you believe is far less important and interesting than why. If you aren't willing to delve into why you accept the claims you will never understand why atheists reject them.
We are still talking about post 149 right? I just want to make sure it is clear that all I intend to do is use scripture to explain why his comments were inaccurate to Christian doctrine. I understand that you and many others don't believe the bible but from what I have gathered, the question is regarding what Christians believe not if their beliefs are true.

Actually, I don't think he was questioning the fact that Christians believe these things. I took his objection to be more along the lines of how can they believe such obviously ludicrous things.
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13-11-2015, 10:11 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(13-11-2015 09:55 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(13-11-2015 09:22 AM)unfogged Wrote:  As I said, what you believe is far less important and interesting than why. If you aren't willing to delve into why you accept the claims you will never understand why atheists reject them.
We are still talking about post 149 right? I just want to make sure it is clear that all I intend to do is use scripture to explain why his comments were inaccurate to Christian doctrine. I understand that you and many others don't believe the bible but from what I have gathered, the question is regarding what Christians believe not if their beliefs are true.

Actually, I don't think he was questioning the fact that Christians believe these things. I took his objection to be more along the lines of how can they believe such obviously ludicrous things.
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13-11-2015, 10:15 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(13-11-2015 07:36 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  https://youtu.be/kn200lvmTZc

I am not avoiding anyone. I just got a lot going on at work. For now I will just say that I can never truly know what it is like for an atheist. All I can do is try to put myself in their shoes. The video above best describes how I imagine what goes through the mind of an atheist when the are surrounded by theist.

I did avoid the questions because once I realized that it was turning into an atheist vs christian I wanted to get things back under control.

If you still want me to answer those questions I would be happy to. I just want to make sure that it is understood that I am only explaining what I believe and what many other Christians are taught.

Unfortunately, as you have probably noticed, Idiocracy is disturbingly insightful into human nature. We will try to avoid throwing things at you, and to actually listen to you. Just understand that we are all (yes even us heathens) just intelligent (arguably intelligent, anyway) chimpanzees, and there will be some who feel the need to fling poo, no matter what you say, because you come from The Other Tribe. As atheists, we too often are the target of the flying poop simply because we represent the minority opinion; here, the roles are reversed.

I think we all know Jason well enough by now to know that he's not trying to be deliberately condescending, but quite the opposite. I ask everyone to take a step back and breathe a minute, and consider giving him the benefit of the doubt.

He knows he's not going to convert us, and that isn't what I've seen him try to do at all. We did ask him questions about why he believes, so no one get mad when he answers us as honestly as he can. Just because we don't find the answers enlightened or accurate (or whatever) doesn't require us to start picking up the best piles of feces we can find to turn into projectiles.

I'm just sayin'.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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