Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
13-11-2015, 10:19 AM (This post was last modified: 13-11-2015 10:28 AM by jason_delisle.)
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(13-11-2015 10:15 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(13-11-2015 07:36 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  https://youtu.be/kn200lvmTZc

I am not avoiding anyone. I just got a lot going on at work. For now I will just say that I can never truly know what it is like for an atheist. All I can do is try to put myself in their shoes. The video above best describes how I imagine what goes through the mind of an atheist when the are surrounded by theist.

I did avoid the questions because once I realized that it was turning into an atheist vs christian I wanted to get things back under control.

If you still want me to answer those questions I would be happy to. I just want to make sure that it is understood that I am only explaining what I believe and what many other Christians are taught.

Unfortunately, as you have probably noticed, Idiocracy is disturbingly insightful into human nature. We will try to avoid throwing things at you, and to actually listen to you. Just understand that we are all (yes even us heathens) just intelligent (arguably intelligent, anyway) chimpanzees, and there will be some who feel the need to fling poo, no matter what you say, because you come from The Other Tribe. As atheists, we too often are the target of the flying poop simply because we represent the minority opinion; here, the roles are reversed.

I think we all know Jason well enough by now to know that he's not trying to be deliberately condescending, but quite the opposite. I ask everyone to take a step back and breathe a minute, and consider giving him the benefit of the doubt.

He knows he's not going to convert us, and that isn't what I've seen him try to do at all. We did ask him questions about why he believes, so no one get mad when he answers us as honestly as he can. Just because we don't find the answers enlightened or accurate (or whatever) doesn't require us to start picking up the best piles of feces we can find to turn into projectiles.

I'm just sayin'.
Thank you. I am still trying to figure out how to work the HTTP code to post my reply.

Btw... I just want to make sure that everyone understands that the Idiocracy clip was not describing how I feel about you but rather to explain that how I would imagine how frustrating it can be to try to reason with theists.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-11-2015, 11:07 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(13-11-2015 09:55 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(13-11-2015 09:22 AM)unfogged Wrote:  As I said, what you believe is far less important and interesting than why. If you aren't willing to delve into why you accept the claims you will never understand why atheists reject them.
We are still talking about post 149 right? I just want to make sure it is clear that all I intend to do is use scripture to explain why his comments were inaccurate to Christian doctrine. I understand that you and many others don't believe the bible but from what I have gathered, the question is regarding what Christians believe not if their beliefs are true.

No, I read it very differently. He knows what the beliefs are (and we all understand that your specific beliefs may differ somewhat from the general cases being presented). He's asking what evidence you have to support those beliefs.

1. There was no Jesus. There might have been a Yeshua, but certainly no Jesus.
-- not really asking anything, just pointing out that there is a difference between accepting as likely the claim that some itinerant preacher may have been used as the basis for some of the stories and the stories themselves. If "Yeshua" existed then he was a Jim Jones or David Koresh or similar cult leader (both of whom are said by their followers to have performed miracles).

2. What is a sin? Does a god have to exist or a morality code have to exist in order for people to sin?
-- I don't take this as a simple question about what you believe but as a deeper question about what you really think that nature of sin is. What is is based on? Why would the god designate a particular act as a sin? What harm does it cause?

3. How does a person die for other people's sins? Is a specific magical ritual performed? Some special magical words spoken? Or does any death count? All people die eventually, what is special about this death?
-- again, not asking if you believe that Jesus died for the sins of others but by what mechanism that even makes sense? He's being a bit flippant but it is to make the point that you can't just say "Jesus died for our sins" without explaining how that could possibly work. If I injure somebody then the killing of a third party does nothing to redress that injury in any meaningful way that I can see. I don't need to know that you believe it does, I need to understand the how and the why in order to accept it as a valid mechanism for forgiveness.

4. There is no evidence that Yeshua was killed as part of a magical sacrificial ritual.
-- not asking if you believe that; pointing out that if you believe that he was killed as some sort of sacrifice then you don't have any good reason to do so. There is little evidence that he existed but even accepting that there was a man at the core of the myth there is no apparent reason to believe it was anything more than any of the thousands of other similar deaths. Saying that you believe this one was special is all well and good but doesn't move the conversation forward.

5. What is the value in a death, how is it seen as a commodity? Why would an all perfect god (i.e. all complete) have a requirement for someone's death? What value does the god get out of it? Psst - There is no value in blood sacrifices, it was a custom invented by superstitious, confused and ignorant people.
-- again, asking for the underlying reason or mechanism why a sacrifice is required and how it actually atones for anything. The belief that Jesus died as a sacrifice is widely accepted; the question is how that works.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like unfogged's post
13-11-2015, 11:21 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(13-11-2015 10:15 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Unfortunately, as you have probably noticed, Idiocracy is disturbingly insightful into human nature. We will try to avoid throwing things at you, and to actually listen to you. Just understand that we are all (yes even us heathens) just intelligent (arguably intelligent, anyway) chimpanzees, and there will be some who feel the need to fling poo, no matter what you say, because you come from The Other Tribe. As atheists, we too often are the target of the flying poop simply because we represent the minority opinion; here, the roles are reversed.

I liked the Idiocracy clip; I thought it showed a fair understanding on Jason's part of what much of religion sounds like to me. I sit there listening to theists and just facepalm at how ridiculous it is. It was an encouraging sign that he posted that.

Quote:I think we all know Jason well enough by now to know that he's not trying to be deliberately condescending, but quite the opposite. I ask everyone to take a step back and breathe a minute, and consider giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I did not mean to imply that he was being deliberately condescending. My impression is that he is honestly trying to understand but that his indoctrination is a huge barrier to real communication. Never having believed myself I may not be the best at breaking through that but he is frustrating because I see a generally intelligent, thoughtful, caring person who appears to have one area where he refuses to apply those traits (and doesn't even realize himself that he's doing that).

Quote:He knows he's not going to convert us, and that isn't what I've seen him try to do at all. We did ask him questions about why he believes, so no one get mad when he answers us as honestly as he can. Just because we don't find the answers enlightened or accurate (or whatever) doesn't require us to start picking up the best piles of feces we can find to turn into projectiles.

I'm just sayin'.

Jason's a big boy and I think he can handle it. Again, I don't think he's deliberately trying to be dishonest in his answers but I do think his beliefs are preventing him from really understanding what people are trying to say so he isn't answering what was actually asked. I'm hopeful that he will stick it out and begin to understand us better. I think he has the potential.

There are other theists around (Alla, Tomasia, COTW, etc) who I don't bother much with because they don't show any signs of being willing to question anything they believe. Jason does and that makes him worth some effort. Even if he continues to believe I think he'll be better off for having thought through WHY he believes.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes unfogged's post
13-11-2015, 11:23 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
Well said.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-11-2015, 11:45 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(12-11-2015 06:17 PM)Stevil Wrote:  2. What is a sin? Does a god have to exist or a morality code have to exist in order for people to sin?

Sin is described in the Bible as transgression of the law of God (1 John 3:4) and rebellion against God (Deuteronomy 9:7; Joshua 1:18). Sin had its beginning with Lucifer, probably the most beautiful and powerful of the angels. Not content with his position, he desired to be higher than God, and that was his downfall, the beginning of sin (Isaiah 14:12-15). Renamed Satan, he brought sin to the human race in the Garden of Eden, where he tempted Adam and Eve with the same enticement, “you shall be like God.” Genesis 3 describes Adam and Eve’s rebellion against God and against His command. Since that time, sin has been passed down through all the generations of mankind and we, Adam’s descendants, have inherited sin from him. Romans 5:12 tells us that through Adam sin entered the world, and so death was passed on to all men because “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23).

Through Adam, the inherent inclination to sin entered the human race, and human beings became sinners by nature. When Adam sinned, his inner nature was transformed by his sin of rebellion, bringing to him spiritual death and depravity which would be passed on to all who came after him. We are sinners not because we sin; rather, we sin because we are sinners. This passed-on depravity is known as inherited sin. Just as we inherit physical characteristics from our parents, we inherit our sinful natures from Adam. King David lamented this condition of fallen human nature in Psalm 51:5: “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.”

Another type of sin is known as imputed sin. Used in both financial and legal settings, the Greek word translated “imputed” means “to take something that belongs to someone and credit it to another’s account.” Before the Law of Moses was given, sin was not imputed to man, although men were still sinners because of inherited sin. After the Law was given, sins committed in violation of the Law were imputed (accounted) to them (Romans 5:13). Even before transgressions of the law were imputed to men, the ultimate penalty for sin (death) continued to reign (Romans 5:14). All humans, from Adam to Moses, were subject to death, not because of their sinful acts against the Mosaic Law (which they did not have), but because of their own inherited sinful nature. After Moses, humans were subject to death both because of inherited sin from Adam and imputed sin from violating the laws of God.

God used the principle of imputation to benefit mankind when He imputed the sin of believers to the account of Jesus Christ, who paid the penalty for that sin—death—on the cross. Imputing our sin to Jesus, God treated Him as if He were a sinner, though He was not, and had Him die for the sins of the entire world (1 John 2:2). It is important to understand that sin was imputed to Him, but He did not inherit it from Adam. He bore the penalty for sin, but He never became a sinner. His pure and perfect nature was untouched by sin. He was treated as though He were guilty of all the sins ever committed by the human race, even though He committed none. In exchange, God imputed the righteousness of Christ to believers and credited our accounts with His righteousness, just as He had credited our sins to Christ’s account (2 Corinthians 5:21).

A third type of sin is personal sin, that which is committed every day by every human being. Because we have inherited a sin nature from Adam, we commit individual, personal sins, everything from seemingly innocent untruths to murder. Those who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ must pay the penalty for these personal sins, as well as inherited and imputed sin. However, believers have been freed from the eternal penalty of sin—hell and spiritual death—but now we also have the power to resist sinning. Now we can choose whether or not to commit personal sins because we have the power to resist sin through the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, sanctifying and convicting us of our sins when we do commit them (Romans 8:9-11). Once we confess our personal sins to God and ask forgiveness for them, we are restored to perfect fellowship and communion with Him. “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).

We are all three times condemned due to inherited sin, imputed sin, and personal sin. The only just penalty for this sin is death (Romans 6:23), not just physical death but eternal death (Revelation 20:11-15).


(12-11-2015 06:17 PM)Stevil Wrote:  3. How does a person die for other people's sins? Is a specific magical ritual performed? Some special magical words spoken? Or does any death count? All people die eventually, what is special about this death?

5. What is the value in a death, how is it seen as a commodity? Why would an all perfect god (i.e. all complete) have a requirement for someone's death? What value does the god get out of it? Psst - There is no value in blood sacrifices, it was a custom invented by superstitious, confused and ignorant people.

Throughout old testament scripture sacrifices were performed for several reasons. Some sacrifices were made to give thanks to God (ex. If a shepherd was blessed with a large flock he would pick the finest lamb from the flock to perform a "burnt offering". This was basically a way of saying "Thank you God for the blessings you provided. In return I will sacrifice a portion of it so you may be glorified."

The second type b of sacrifice that was performed was what was called a "sin offering". This was performed when someone broke the laws of Moses. Basically when someone sinned they put up a barrier between themselves and God because as I previously stated sin is rebellious in nature. It says "God, I don't need you or your laws. I am going to do my own thing without you". In order to restore this relationship with God a "sin offering" of an animal was necessary. None of them were human sacrifices. Old testament scripture condemned human sacrifices in Deuteronomy calling it an evil practice.

Why was a sacrifice required? What is the significance of blood? Leviticus 17 says that ..."The life of the creature is in the blood". Animals do not have the capacity to sin so their lives are pure. Humans are sinners so their blood is not pure. Which is another reason why a human sacrifice is not acceptable to god. So when an animal is sacrificed as a "sin offering" the pure life of the animal is used as atonement for the sin that was committed.

This will begin to explain why the death of Jesus was significant and not just anyone. Because the bible teaches that Jesus was the embodiment of God and was free of sin. He was the only one who was worthy of a human sacrifice because he was without sin so his blood was pure. His crucifixion and death was a symbolic "sin offering". Which is why he is referred to as "the lamb of God".

Now because the "sin offering" has been paid by the death of Jesus, all of of our sins have been paid. The barrier between man and God has been broken and the door to enter the kingdom of heaven is open for all.

But there is a catch. The only thing that is required to be saved is to accept Jesus. To believe that he died for your sins. It is like he is giving away free tickets to heaven but all you have to do to get one is to believe in him and love him. It is not about how good or bad of a person you are. God does not want you to go to hell but if you are doomed to hell it is because you chose to reject the sacrifice of His son, not because you were bad.

I really didn't want to make this into a sermon and preach to you. I feel like a guest at someone's house because I am a Christian in an atheist forum. Once again I am not trying to change anyone's position or say their views or wrong. I am just stating what myself and the majority of Christians believe. I am in no way expecting anyone to believe any of this because it all comes from the bible and to try to use the bible to prove any of this is true is like proving superman exists by reading a comic book.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-11-2015, 12:28 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(13-11-2015 05:34 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(13-11-2015 03:47 AM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  I understand some of you have a lot of built up frustration towards theist because they tend to judge you because of your positions and constantly try for force their beliefs on you.... I know it must be very frustrating but please don't be so defensive. I am not attacking or trying to discredit your beliefs. Thank you. I am going to bed.

Okay, I think I've been polite long enough.

Fuck you. I mean it. Go fuck yourself with an atomic chainsaw. You think I care about being judged? I don't care what the rest of my local community thinks. Their opinions mean little to nothing for me. I've gotten death threats. Worse, I've had threats of trumping up charges for the purpose of having my child taken away. All this for refusing to engage in anthropomorphic nonsense. You have no idea what it's like to live in a place where there is a de facto theocracy.

So, just to reiterate, go fuck yourself.
So...why exactly are you upset?
[/quote]

I guess I ought to apologize.

I'm sorry that I snapped, Jason. It wasn't just your post. It was sleep deprivation and work related stress and other factors that had nothing to do with you, and your post just set me off. Again, I'm sorry.

Hug

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Old Man Marsh's post
13-11-2015, 01:12 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(13-11-2015 11:45 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  The only just penalty for this sin is death (Romans 6:23), not just physical death but eternal death (Revelation 20:11-15).

The books say that (or, at least, they can be interpreted that way although other xians may disagree). Does it really make sense, especially in the case of inherited sin? Why is it just for the child to be liable for the acts of the parent?

Quote:This was basically a way of saying "Thank you God for the blessings you provided. In return I will sacrifice a portion of it so you may be glorified."

I understand giving up something of value to a benefactor as a sign of gratitude. How exactly does killing an innocent animal glorify god?

Quote:Why was a sacrifice required? What is the significance of blood? Leviticus 17 says that ..."The life of the creature is in the blood". Animals do not have the capacity to sin so their lives are pure. Humans are sinners so their blood is not pure. Which is another reason why a human sacrifice is not acceptable to god. So when an animal is sacrificed as a "sin offering" the pure life of the animal is used as atonement for the sin that was committed.

Ignoring the fact that the blood is no more or less essential for life than other parts of the animal, how does the death of an innocent animal atone for wrongdoing? How does an impure human killing a pure animal do anything to make the human less impure?

Quote:But there is a catch. The only thing that is required to be saved is to accept Jesus. To believe that he died for your sins. It is like he is giving away free tickets to heaven but all you have to do to get one is to believe in him and love him. It is not about how good or bad of a person you are. God does not want you to go to hell but if you are doomed to hell it is because you chose to reject the sacrifice of His son, not because you were bad.

Under what possible rational does that make sense? God doesn't care how good or bad you are as long as you believe that innocent blood pays for anything you do? I know it is hard to see past the belief but it makes no sense. If I do something wrong then I need to make up for it. Killing an innocent animal or believing that Jesus was killed as an innocent are totally irrelevant. I do not expect or want anybody else to atone for my transgressions; that would be incredibly immoral no matter how I look at it.

Quote:I really didn't want to make this into a sermon and preach to you. I feel like a guest at someone's house because I am a Christian in an atheist forum. Once again I am not trying to change anyone's position or say their views or wrong. I am just stating what myself and the majority of Christians believe. I am in no way expecting anyone to believe any of this because it all comes from the bible and to try to use the bible to prove any of this is true is like proving superman exists by reading a comic book.

Look at it this way... telling us what you believe and not wanting to dive into it IS just preaching at us. We (I, anyway) WANT you to support your beliefs and try to convince us that there are reasons to accept them.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like unfogged's post
13-11-2015, 01:18 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(13-11-2015 12:28 PM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  
(13-11-2015 05:34 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Okay, I think I've been polite long enough.

Fuck you. I mean it. Go fuck yourself with an atomic chainsaw. You think I care about being judged? I don't care what the rest of my local community thinks. Their opinions mean little to nothing for me. I've gotten death threats. Worse, I've had threats of trumping up charges for the purpose of having my child taken away. All this for refusing to engage in anthropomorphic nonsense. You have no idea what it's like to live in a place where there is a de facto theocracy.

So, just to reiterate, go fuck yourself.
So...why exactly are you upset?

I guess I ought to apologize.

I'm sorry that I snapped, Jason. It wasn't just your post. It was sleep deprivation and work related stress and other factors that had nothing to do with you, and your post just set me off. Again, I'm sorry.

Hug
[/quote]

Lol. I understand. No problem.

[Image: 191d94e9b7ef5730d3834f9d7ce34ecc.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes jason_delisle's post
13-11-2015, 01:39 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
I do enjoy these sort of debates.

[Image: 25381a170af43f5e363b99f215222a9b79e263aa...9915ad9cc1]

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Commonsensei's post
13-11-2015, 01:40 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(13-11-2015 11:07 AM)unfogged Wrote:  He's asking what evidence you have to support those beliefs.
It's about putting 2 and 2 together in order to get the complete picture.
Sure there are the assertions:
- Jesus died for our sins.


Then there is the second level of assertions.
- We are all sinners.
- Jesus was free from sin
- We should have paid the price on our own sins with our own deaths, but Jesus paid it, so we get eternal life
- Jesus death on the cross was a sacrifice

But if you look at the stories they don't line up with the assertions.
- If humans are all sinners (born with the stain of sin) then how come Jesus is without sin?
- Why is death payment for sin? Who is the payment made to? How does this entity get value from our death? and why do we owe payment to this entity?
- How can we see the Roman's crucifying Jesus as being a sacrifice? When I watch Vikings tv show, they have a sacrifice table, they have a holy person with a blade, they perform a ritual and say some magic words. It seems like they are making a special sacrifice to a specific god. But with the Christian story there is non of that. The Romans don't even believe in the Jewish god. So they can't be performing a special sacrificial ritual.


Christianity, it seems to me is assertion based. Their assertions don't even line up with the stories in the bible which they use to somehow present their assertions.


BTW: From what I posted it was simple for unfogged to get it. But much more difficult for a theist to understand. This is a fundamental issue, if a theist chaplain is offering support to an atheist there is a high likelihood of misalignment and confusion. The theist maybe trying his hardest to be impartial, to be aligned with the atheist but may fundamentally miss the mark without knowing it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Stevil's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: