Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
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14-11-2015, 02:57 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
The was no Exodus. The Egyptians controlled the entire Near East. Why leave one place they controlled just to go to another.

Additionally much of the content is political, slamming one kingdom at the expense of another.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ble-Bull-s

By ISRAELI archaologists :
There is NO WAY 600,000 people ever left Egypt. It's all a fake.



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14-11-2015, 03:18 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(14-11-2015 02:31 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  https://youtu.be/2assFIyLInE

I don't know if you would consider anything in this video as evidence but it is something. Here is a link for the trailer but the full documentary is on netflix. I am curious to hear what you think about it.

We have already demonstrated that the OT is not literally true. The creation myths, the flood, the magic, and so on.

What makes anyone believe that any of it is literally true? If some is, what parts? How does one decide? Evidence, that's how.

I believe I have seen that video and it was unconvincing as there was a lot of forcing of fact to fit a narrative.

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15-11-2015, 07:06 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(14-11-2015 02:31 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  https://youtu.be/2assFIyLInE

I don't know if you would consider anything in this video as evidence but it is something. Here is a link for the trailer but the full documentary is on netflix. I am curious to hear what you think about it.

I think we're pretty familiar with Texas Sharpshooter archaeology on this forum.




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15-11-2015, 09:23 AM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(14-11-2015 02:31 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  https://youtu.be/2assFIyLInE

I don't know if you would consider anything in this video as evidence but it is something. Here is a link for the trailer but the full documentary is on netflix. I am curious to hear what you think about it.

I haven't seen the whole thing but from clips I've seen it appears to be a lot of wishful thinking. Just from the trailer I see them picking things from different points in time and trying to link them together to roughly match the biblical account but the chronology is suspect at best.

As one example from the trailer, they identify a gravesite in Egypt with a Semitic body -- nobody is claiming that there weren't any Hebrews at all who traveled to Egypt. The bible talks of something like 2 million living largely in one area and that would have left a huge imprint in the archaeological record. If Egypt had been decimated as the story of the plagues described then there would be records not only in Egypt but in surrounding nations. Had 2 million people lived for 40 years in the region between Egypt and Israel there would be evidence. None of that has been found and the time to believe is when the evidence is there.

I have no problem with the idea that parts of the story of the Exodus have a factual basis. Some Hebrews may have lived in Egypt. Perhaps, for example, some small groups of Hebrews escaped a bad situation in Egypt and made their way to Canaan and by the time the story was told over generations it grew and was incorporated into the mythos. I think there's a lot we do not know about the time and things that seem unusual and deserve deeper investigation. If that process turns up evidence that a large group of people migrated from Egypt to Israel then that will be the time to believe that something akin to the exodus happened. So far there are only a few bits of circumstantial evidence that are far from unexplainable without an exodus and too much that doesn't make sense if you assume it to be true.

Another consideration is that evidence for the exodus is not evidence for the god. Even if the framework of the story were shown to be essentially accurate you'd still be left with no reason to believe that the supernatural claims made in the story are true. We're back to your earlier comments that archaeology can show the bible to be more likely true because it references historical places or events. That's just not the case, it only means that the writers incorporated real things into their tales to add versimilitude.

The one quote that really stood out in the trailer for me was David Wolpe saying that whether or not it was true, it is true. He's basically saying that the historicity is irrelevant, it is the moral truth of the story that matters. That seems to be a particularly Jewish perspective that many Christians don't share. Stories have value regardless of their historical accuracy but that also makes them pretty useless if the question is what is factually true.

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15-11-2015, 11:24 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
Jason let's say you see an honest to gods miracle. Someone prays and someone else's arm is regrown right in front of your eyes. (Not that that will ever happen). There are a million explanations for the said sequence of events that don't involve assuming an invisible Creator-deity who personally supervises people's lives. Number one on my list would be that is was some kind of trick - that a magician or some other professional charlatan had set it up.

But even if there was no trick, all that you know is that you say the magic words and the miracle occurs, it's like flicking a light switch. We know (or at least strongly suspect) that it's electricity based on our historical experiences and because we see the standard light fittings, but if we just had a switch and when we flicked the switch we saw light we'd have no way to conclude *how* the light was activated.

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16-11-2015, 02:20 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(13-11-2015 07:07 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  To have theist vs atheist debate is futile for me because the best you can ever hope to achieve is prove the God of the bible does not exist which will result in me turning to Deism.
I find this statement very interesting.
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16-11-2015, 02:24 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(16-11-2015 02:20 PM)ohio_drg Wrote:  
(13-11-2015 07:07 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  To have theist vs atheist debate is futile for me because the best you can ever hope to achieve is prove the God of the bible does not exist which will result in me turning to Deism.
I find this statement very interesting.

I'm impressed by the degree of self-awareness it shows. Deism is necessarily completely unfalsifiable.

Whereas conventional theism is likewise unfalsifiable, but it takes a hell of a lot more reality denial. Deists don't have to deny anything - it's just a god of the gaps by definition.

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16-11-2015, 02:48 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(04-08-2011 09:21 AM)digitali Wrote:  Do they know that if they succeed, it doesn't prove creationism anyway?Smile

Creationism is now called ID but still the same thing. The new trend is to attributed evolution to "Yea, evolution is true, but God did it".

I have been at this 14 years and debated a variety of religions, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu....and a few others, and what they do is try to attack science, when they know they cant do that, they try to say that science props up their religion. But Christians are not the only group to do it.

All the same crap no matter who is doing it.

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16-11-2015, 05:22 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(15-11-2015 11:24 PM)morondog Wrote:  Jason let's say you see an honest to gods miracle. Someone prays and someone else's arm is regrown right in front of your eyes. (Not that that will ever happen). There are a million explanations for the said sequence of events that don't involve assuming an invisible Creator-deity who personally supervises people's lives. Number one on my list would be that is was some kind of trick - that a magician or some other professional charlatan had set it up.

But even if there was no trick, all that you know is that you say the magic words and the miracle occurs, it's like flicking a light switch. We know (or at least strongly suspect) that it's electricity based on our historical experiences and because we see the standard light fittings, but if we just had a switch and when we flicked the switch we saw light we'd have no way to conclude *how* the light was activated.
I just want to make sure I understand. You are basically saying that even if a miracle was to happen right in front of your eyes you would assume that it is not a miracle from God but rather something that happened naturally that we do not understand yet?

If that is the case that would explain why, according to the bible, (emphasis on according to the bible because I know many here think it isn't accurate) so many people who witnessed the miracles of Jesus and the prophets still did not believe. Including the apostle Thomas (aka doubting Thomas) who was the biggest skeptic.
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16-11-2015, 05:23 PM
RE: Why is it that creationist are trying to disprove evolution
(16-11-2015 02:24 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(16-11-2015 02:20 PM)ohio_drg Wrote:  I find this statement very interesting.

I'm impressed by the degree of self-awareness it shows. Deism is necessarily completely unfalsifiable.

Whereas conventional theism is likewise unfalsifiable, but it takes a hell of a lot more reality denial. Deists don't have to deny anything - it's just a god of the gaps by definition.
Agreed.
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