Why is necrophilia illegal?
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08-08-2015, 04:07 PM
RE: Why is necrophilia illegal?
(08-08-2015 03:45 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  
(08-08-2015 03:27 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  So far there's been a lot of cliche-thinking fallacy going on. You rave about respect for the dead, to memories, to those who loved the dead. These are things you will find many people are emotionally invested in, which is why you are using this rhetoric.

Yup.
(08-08-2015 03:45 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Give an objective reason as to why someone should not use matter that holds no conscious for sexual gratification.

I've already spoken about the "objective". Then I spoke about humanity and why we collectively (the psychopathic notwithstanding) feel that for one, humping a mound of dirt is stupid, and for two, there are easily understood reasons that humping the physical remains of someone who once had a respectable existence on this planet is wrong given our tendency towards respecting human life being that it's all we really have.

You're trying to piss up a rope here, and I'm afraid you're just gonna end up all wet...

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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08-08-2015, 04:31 PM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2015 04:35 PM by Gilgamesh.)
RE: Why is necrophilia illegal?
(08-08-2015 04:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-08-2015 03:48 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  I like you, even if you don't like me, because you are succinct in your admission that they are emotional 'arguments.' Following that, I simply disagree with you that they are not invalid; they are.

It is illegal in the majority of states in the U.S., and in a majority of those it is a felony.

It is illegal in the U.K., Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, and more.

That's not emotional, that's a fact.

I am not, nore will I, contend this.

(08-08-2015 03:53 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Well, how 'bout this one, douchebag:

If you fuck a corpse, you can argue with the jury about why it's illogical to prosecute you for Desecration of a Corpse.

And when you get to prison, you can argue with the six guys who will promptly show up to fuck you INTO a corpse that what you did was totally logical.

Asshole.

lol wut.

Stupid people exist, thus

Stupid laws exist. Also

Stupid people that will hurt you for disagreeing with them exist.

We both already accept these things.
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08-08-2015, 04:49 PM
RE: Why is necrophilia illegal?
Yeah trust me, no one on this earth is more aware of the existence of stupid laws. It has nothing to do with my point. That law exists because we, as a society, place a strong value on respect for the dead.

So you think that this is all about "disagreeing with them"? You're either trolling or a total idiot.

People WILL hurt you for disrespecting them beyond a point they're willing to tolerate, and the desecration of a corpse means you have no concern for the feelings of others-- that makes you a sociopath, and possibly a psychopath, if you (as seems to me to be the case) also derive pleasure from the suffering of others.

Finally, you wouldn't be raped to death because prisoners are stupid; prison culture is notorious for advocating/practicing a wide range of harm upon sexual perverts, which you are quickly appearing to me to be. It is simply intolerable to them to have, among their society, those who do harm to the vulnerable in order to gratify their sexual urges. One can make the "logical" argument that there's no reason not to touch little kids (because, after all, their sexual equipment begins to function at puberty), but if you fucking try it, you're going to get beaten to death by the parents who love that kid, or by any decent human being who discovers you, certainly me if I was that person. If you're lucky. And if you're unlucky, you're going to wind up among those aforementioned prisoners who will show you, personally, why and how being a sexual pervert hurts people. I am not saying I agree with this practice, but it's the way it is. They're somewhat less tolerant than the average.

Simply put, if you are willing to indulge your sexual urges in a way that is clearly disrespectful of those who respect the dead, or those who value the right of a person to choose whether or not to be sexual (age of consent, inebriation, etc), then you are the worst kind of human scum. It means you have failed at being a decent human being, and no amount of "logic" changes that basic concept.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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08-08-2015, 05:13 PM
RE: Why is necrophilia illegal?
Oh, and incidentally, those particular prisoners would do what they'd do because they are psychopaths who are aware that the Powers That Be™ will look the other way while it happens. It's why we (ordinarily) have laws to protect us against those who will not respect others, and what happens when those laws vanish.

I mention this because if you're unwilling to respect the values of society, the ones which say that you MAY NOT disrespect the bodies of the people we loved and/or our memories of their lives by desecrating their corpse, then you are in no way distinguishable from the rapists in my above-mentioned scenario. Those who do what they want because there's no logical reason for them to do otherwise belong in prison, and what you are suggesting is something that's not even tolerated by prison society. You should pause to reflect on that element for a bit. Even a sociopath should worry about thinking in a way that is guaranteed to cause the rest of society to harm them in return.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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08-08-2015, 05:14 PM
RE: Why is necrophilia illegal?
(08-08-2015 04:49 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Yeah trust me, no one on this earth is more aware of the existence of stupid laws. It has nothing to do with my point. That law exists because we, as a society, place a strong value on respect for the dead.

So you think that this is all about "disagreeing with them"? You're either trolling or a total idiot.

People WILL hurt you for disrespecting the-

Disrespect is subjective. Anything can be offensive. Anything can be disrespectful. I don't mean to say that they will hurt me because I just disagree with them, but that they will hurt me because they equate my dissent with offense or disrespect, which is childish. I am saying I acknowledge reactionary, immature, stupid people exist.

Quote:and the desecration of a corpse means you have no concern for the feelings of others-- that makes you a sociopath, and possibly a psychopath, if you (as seems to me to be the case) also derive pleasure from the suffering of others.

No, it doesn't. No, that doesn't. I don't.

Quote:Finally, you wouldn't be raped to death because prisoners are stupid; prison culture is notorious for advocating/practicing a wide range of harm upon sexual perverts, which you are quickly appearing to me to be. It is simply intolerable to them to have, among their society, those who do harm to the vulnerable in order to gratify their sexual urges. One can make the "logical" argument that there's no reason not to touch little kids (because, after all, their sexual equipment begins to function at puberty), but if you fucking try it, you're going to get beaten to death by the parents who love that kid, or by any decent human being who discovers you, certainly me if I was that person. If you're lucky. And if you're unlucky, you're going to wind up among those aforementioned prisoners who will show you, personally, why and how being a sexual pervert hurts people. I am not saying I agree with this practice, but it's the way it is. They're somewhat less tolerant than the average.

Simply put, if you are willing to indulge your sexual urges in a way that is clearly disrespectful of those who respect the dead or those who value the right of a person to choose whether or not to be sexual (age of consent, inebriation, etc), then you are the worst kind of human scum. It means you have failed at being a decent human being, and no amount of "logic" changes that basic concept.

Sexual perverts. I'm not going to touch upon whether or not people hurting them is deserved or not. I'm just going to say that necrophilia practiced, and pedophilia practiced, is a false equivalence; Fallacious. What I'm arguing for here is exactly that necrophilia isn't sexual perversion. Even if it was, it would still be a different sexual perversion than pedophilia; Utterly fallacious.

Imagine arguing that gay people should be tolerated. And so I, despite all your arguments that they are not doing something perverted, just made the positive claim that gays are sexual perverts, and that since pedophiles are also sexual perverts, there are on that basis equatable. Extremely disingenuous and annoying.
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08-08-2015, 05:19 PM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2015 05:26 PM by Gilgamesh.)
RE: Why is necrophilia illegal?
(08-08-2015 05:13 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I mention this because if you're unwilling to respect the values of society, the ones which say that you MAY NOT disrespect the bodies of the people we loved and/or our memories of their lives by desecrating their corpse, then you are in no way distinguishable from the rapists in my above-mentioned scenario.

Okay. You're born in a muslim nation. You disrespect their values. You're not better than a rapist because of it.

You have lost all faculties that facilitate critical thought. You are emotionally compromised.

It's an easy refute without analogy, too: Something is not right just because society deems it so.

Quote: Those who do what they want because there's no logical reason for them to do otherwise belong in prison

Sure, although if you're equating that sentiment with what I've been arguing, it is a strawman. There is a logical reason to put your junk in decaying organic matter if: it gets you off. Something tangible and objective; sexual gratification, vs something subjective, conceptual, and had without good reason; fee-fees being hurt because someone rubbed their junk on decaying organic matter.
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08-08-2015, 05:26 PM
RE: Why is necrophilia illegal?
Consent. That is all.

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08-08-2015, 05:27 PM
RE: Why is necrophilia illegal?
I do argue for such, and all the time. No, there is no direct connection between gratifying yourself on the corpse of a former human and doing so on a person not yet able to give consent. I did not mean to imply such, only to give an example of something that society bans because it is harmful. When there is no consent to have sex, it is not sex, it is perversion and it defies every principle of a just society. It does harm to others who live because of our valuation of our own lives and those of our loved ones, and the way we'd want them treated after death. That has nothing to do with homosexuality, in which two (or, if they're lucky, seven) consenting adults agree to engage in intercourse.

Up until now, the only people I have ever seen who have trouble understanding that, legally and morally, you can only have sex with a consenting adult have been fundamentalists. Odd.

You are arguing that a corpse is "just a body", an inanimate object and thus no different than, say, a blow-up doll. But they are not the same, because the body is a specific representation of our respect for the life that people live (even if no one respects that particular life), which comes with an expectation that our bodies be treated in death as we would have wished them to be treated while we were alive. If the owner of that corpse gave you specific permission to do that, while they were alive and still in possession of their faculties, then I would have no moral issue with it (still think it's really weird, but it's not my place to judge), so long as the families would not feel defiled by that act. But in this scenario, the OP was talking about a mortician seeing "a sexy body on the slab", which indicates that it's just a random act without consent. It is therefore perverse, and rightly banned.

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08-08-2015, 05:39 PM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2015 05:45 PM by Gilgamesh.)
RE: Why is necrophilia illegal?
(08-08-2015 05:27 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  When there is no consent to have sex, it is not sex, it is perversion and it defies every principle of a just society.

Necrophilia practiced isn't sex, agreed. It's touching your junk on inanimate matter. Has your penis ever touched an object other than yourself? If so, did it give consent first? No? You are a rapist. This is your non-reasoning, and it is fallacious.

Quote:You are arguing that a corpse is "just a body", an inanimate object and thus no different than, say, a blow-up doll. But they are not the same, because the body is a specific representation of our respect for the life that people live (even if no one respects that particular life)
Some people might say so. Others may not. Certainly more would say it is than it isn't. However, majority agreeance doesn't make something so. Furthermore. 'representation' is inherently subjective. Just because you ascribe value to something doesn't mean I can't do something that would mock that supposed value. Many say their religion should not be allowed to be mocked. They could say their religion 'represents' love and peace, and on that basis all who mock it are advocating for hate. They then kill all who mock it. This is stupid, and it uses your non-reasoning to justify itself.

Your offense to something doesn't mean anything. Nobodies does.

I will always reject 'feelings' as an argument. They are not arguments. They are fallacious attempts at ones. You would usually reject them, too - especially if they favor religion - but when your own are sensibilites are triggered they are suddenly reasonable? No. Examine your bias.
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08-08-2015, 05:52 PM
RE: Why is necrophilia illegal?
(08-08-2015 05:39 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Your offense to something doesn't mean anything. Nobody's does.

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