Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?
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10-06-2013, 08:53 AM
RE: Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?
(10-06-2013 08:44 AM)tblanch777 Wrote:  "No belief" is so hard to grasp because there is no such thing as "no belief". Every action we take or thought we think or word we say is based upon our belief in something. For instance, if I decide to sit down in a chair I do so based upon my belief that the chair is trustworthy and will hold me up. I don't sit down in the chair if I know it will fall apart on me. Having a belief doesn't mean that I always have to consciously think about it before I choose to act on it. I don't always think about the chair holding me up before I sit down in it. But that doesn't mean that my belief in the chair holding me up doesn't exist. So, I challenge you to give me an example where "belief" is absent. Yes, like it or not, you atheists out there have a belief. I believe it's a wrong belief, but it's a belief nonetheless. The belief is you believe that God doesn't exist. It's not a "non-belief". It's a definite belief system and one that is very dangerous to your health, but it's still a belief. Your buddy Seth was asked the question whether Atheism was a religion. He answered with: "Sure. And not smoking cigarettes is a habit." His kind of logic is similar to yours. He believes that not believing in something means he has a non-belief or a non-religion. His logic as well as yours has a major flaw in it. Has he ever heard of a good habit? Isn't not smoking cigarettes a good habit? In the same way, isn't not believing in God still believing in something. It sure is and to say otherwise goes against the very nature of logic that you and Seth say you have. Anyway, let me know what you think. Thanks, tb

You assume the chair will hold you. If you allow the possibility that it may not, you are not believing.

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10-06-2013, 09:15 AM
RE: Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?
Oddly enough I do have beliefs. I was once asked by an apparently orthodox jew (by his dress) near a minora in a public place when the calendar was approaching the winter solstice, "do you believe in god".

My response was, "yes I believe in gods, the gods in the rocks, the trees, and the flowers" or some such. I got the look of someone wondering what rock I had crawled out from under. It was great fun.
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10-06-2013, 03:56 PM
RE: Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?
(10-06-2013 08:47 AM)tblanch777 Wrote:  "No belief" is so hard to grasp because there is no such thing as "no belief". Every action we take or thought we think or word we say is based upon our belief in something. For instance, if I decide to sit down in a chair I do so based upon my belief that the chair is trustworthy and will hold me up. I don't sit down in the chair if I know it will fall apart on me. Having a belief doesn't mean that I always have to consciously think about it before I choose to act on it. I don't always think about the chair holding me up before I sit down in it. But that doesn't mean that my belief in the chair holding me up doesn't exist. So, I challenge you to give me an example where "belief" is absent. Yes, like it or not, you atheists out there have a belief. I believe it's a wrong belief, but it's a belief nonetheless. The belief is you believe that God doesn't exist. It's not a "non-belief". It's a definite belief system and one that is very dangerous to your health, but it's still a belief. Your buddy Seth was asked the question whether Atheism was a religion. He answered with: "Sure. And not smoking cigarettes is a habit." His kind of logic is similar to yours. He believes that not believing in something means he has a non-belief or a non-religion. His logic as well as yours has a major flaw in it. Has he ever heard of a good habit? Isn't not smoking cigarettes a good habit? In the same way, isn't not believing in God still believing in something. It sure is and to say otherwise goes against the very nature of logic that you and Seth say you have. Anyway, let me know what you think. Thanks, tb

Perhaps you're getting hung up on semantics. You can believe that the chair will hold you based upon prior experience and supporting (pun intended) evidence. Most things you do are based on the same belief system: switching on a light, stepping on the brake, or salting your tater tots. You know what the effect or result should be based upon prior experience. With religion, it's all about faith. Faith, by definition, is believing in something without proof. For example, if I handed you one of those Staples EASY buttons and told you that if you press it tapioca pudding will rain in your kitchen, you could choose to believe me on faith. There is no faith required to disbelieve.

Not smoking is not a habit, if it were everything that you don't do would be considered a habit. You would literally have millions of habits: not being hot by a train, not eating rocks, not traveling to nearby star systems, etc. Omitting or excluding activities from your life does not make them habitual.

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10-06-2013, 04:31 PM
RE: Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?
(10-06-2013 08:53 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(10-06-2013 08:44 AM)tblanch777 Wrote:  "No belief" is so hard to grasp because there is no such thing as "no belief". Every action we take or thought we think or word we say is based upon our belief in something. For instance, if I decide to sit down in a chair I do so based upon my belief that the chair is trustworthy and will hold me up.

You assume the chair will hold you. If you allow the possibility that it may not, you are not believing.

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As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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10-06-2013, 04:32 PM
RE: Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?
(10-06-2013 08:47 AM)tblanch777 Wrote:  "No belief" is so hard to grasp because there is no such thing as "no belief". Every action we take or thought we think or word we say is based upon our belief in something. For instance, if I decide to sit down in a chair I do so based upon my belief that the chair is trustworthy and will hold me up. I don't sit down in the chair if I know it will fall apart on me. Having a belief doesn't mean that I always have to consciously think about it before I choose to act on it. I don't always think about the chair holding me up before I sit down in it. But that doesn't mean that my belief in the chair holding me up doesn't exist. So, I challenge you to give me an example where "belief" is absent. Yes, like it or not, you atheists out there have a belief. I believe it's a wrong belief, but it's a belief nonetheless. The belief is you believe that God doesn't exist. It's not a "non-belief". It's a definite belief system and one that is very dangerous to your health, but it's still a belief. Your buddy Seth was asked the question whether Atheism was a religion. He answered with: "Sure. And not smoking cigarettes is a habit." His kind of logic is similar to yours. He believes that not believing in something means he has a non-belief or a non-religion. His logic as well as yours has a major flaw in it. Has he ever heard of a good habit? Isn't not smoking cigarettes a good habit? In the same way, isn't not believing in God still believing in something. It sure is and to say otherwise goes against the very nature of logic that you and Seth say you have. Anyway, let me know what you think. Thanks, tb

I hold no beliefs about chairs being able to hold me. I assume either it will, or based on my judgment it won't. There isn't a need for belief in that. .

Your assuming my disbelief, if you will, is based on something other than evidence. I dismiss the bible as being proof of any diety's existence.

I also find your usage of the term "you atheists" to be rather insulting. Like when my grandma used to yell at the neighborhood kids. "You kids get off my lawn" and later, "you college students with your books and education...."

I won't get into her racial slurs, since those mostly began with "those..."

When you liken atheism to a religion it's like saying bald is a hair color.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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10-06-2013, 05:12 PM
RE: Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?
(10-06-2013 03:56 PM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  
(10-06-2013 08:47 AM)tblanch777 Wrote:  "No belief" is so hard to grasp because there is no such thing as "no belief". Every action we take or thought we think or word we say is based upon our belief in something. For instance, if I decide to sit down in a chair I do so based upon my belief that the chair is trustworthy and will hold me up. I don't sit down in the chair if I know it will fall apart on me. Having a belief doesn't mean that I always have to consciously think about it before I choose to act on it. I don't always think about the chair holding me up before I sit down in it. But that doesn't mean that my belief in the chair holding me up doesn't exist. So, I challenge you to give me an example where "belief" is absent. Yes, like it or not, you atheists out there have a belief. I believe it's a wrong belief, but it's a belief nonetheless. The belief is you believe that God doesn't exist. It's not a "non-belief". It's a definite belief system and one that is very dangerous to your health, but it's still a belief. Your buddy Seth was asked the question whether Atheism was a religion. He answered with: "Sure. And not smoking cigarettes is a habit." His kind of logic is similar to yours. He believes that not believing in something means he has a non-belief or a non-religion. His logic as well as yours has a major flaw in it. Has he ever heard of a good habit? Isn't not smoking cigarettes a good habit? In the same way, isn't not believing in God still believing in something. It sure is and to say otherwise goes against the very nature of logic that you and Seth say you have. Anyway, let me know what you think. Thanks, tb

Perhaps you're getting hung up on semantics. You can believe that the chair will hold you based upon prior experience and supporting (pun intended) evidence. Most things you do are based on the same belief system: switching on a light, stepping on the brake, or salting your tater tots. You know what the effect or result should be based upon prior experience. With religion, it's all about faith. Faith, by definition, is believing in something without proof. For example, if I handed you one of those Staples EASY buttons and told you that if you press it tapioca pudding will rain in your kitchen, you could choose to believe me on faith. There is no faith required to disbelieve.

Not smoking is not a habit, if it were everything that you don't do would be considered a habit. You would literally have millions of habits: not being hot by a train, not eating rocks, not traveling to nearby star systems, etc. Omitting or excluding activities from your life does not make them habitual.

I think you hit the nail on the head here on two counts.

The primary one is "expectations" from prior experience.

The seconday one is the semantics issue. I think it is more accurate to say
"I trust this chair will support me based on my previous experience of having sat on it and it did not collapse".

And while the tapioca pudding raining in your kitchen is hilarious, I think a better analogy in comparing a belief in gods would be holding a belief that furniture placement brings good or bad fortune and so do numbers.

The Chinese, for example, are incredibly superstitious

http://library.thinkquest.org/08aug/0160...tions.html
http://www.chinese-traditions-and-cultur...tions.html

But so is the rest of world, read some of these batshit beliefs

http://www.corsinet.com/trivia/scary.html

And of course, the biggest batshit beliefs can always be found in religious dogmas designed to manipulate and control the masses

Sky daddies, resurrections, virgin births, souls, transubstatiation, spirits, talking snakes, thought police etc.

There is only one core belief I hold that has never been tested but I hold sacred, and that is that my lovely wife would take everything we own, cut my balls of and feed them to the alligators if I ever cheated...and that my friends is NOT superstition. Unsure

Big Grin

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10-06-2013, 10:06 PM
RE: Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?
(10-06-2013 08:53 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(10-06-2013 08:44 AM)tblanch777 Wrote:  "No belief" is so hard to grasp because there is no such thing as "no belief". Every action we take or thought we think or word we say is based upon our belief in something. For instance, if I decide to sit down in a chair I do so based upon my belief that the chair is trustworthy and will hold me up. I don't sit down in the chair if I know it will fall apart on me. Having a belief doesn't mean that I always have to consciously think about it before I choose to act on it. I don't always think about the chair holding me up before I sit down in it. But that doesn't mean that my belief in the chair holding me up doesn't exist. So, I challenge you to give me an example where "belief" is absent. Yes, like it or not, you atheists out there have a belief. I believe it's a wrong belief, but it's a belief nonetheless. The belief is you believe that God doesn't exist. It's not a "non-belief". It's a definite belief system and one that is very dangerous to your health, but it's still a belief. Your buddy Seth was asked the question whether Atheism was a religion. He answered with: "Sure. And not smoking cigarettes is a habit." His kind of logic is similar to yours. He believes that not believing in something means he has a non-belief or a non-religion. His logic as well as yours has a major flaw in it. Has he ever heard of a good habit? Isn't not smoking cigarettes a good habit? In the same way, isn't not believing in God still believing in something. It sure is and to say otherwise goes against the very nature of logic that you and Seth say you have. Anyway, let me know what you think. Thanks, tb

You assume the chair will hold you. If you allow the possibility that it may not, you are not believing.

I assume the chair will hold me based upon my belief in the chair's stability. Your point about the "possibility that it may not" lends further credence to my point. In fact, it makes it a much stronger point. If I go ahead and sit in the chair knowing there is a possibility that it may not hold me, proves that my faith is even stronger. Faith and belief always carry with them an element of risk. By believing in one thing I'm letting go of another thing. tb
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10-06-2013, 10:12 PM
RE: Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?
(10-06-2013 10:06 PM)tblanch777 Wrote:  Faith and belief always carry with them an element of risk. By believing in one thing I'm letting go of another thing. tb

A correction, if I may, as others have done previously.

Trust always carries with it an element of risk. Belief is not the same as trust. Similar, but not the same. By believing in one thing, you are simply believing in one thing. Pretty simple.

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But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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10-06-2013, 10:13 PM
RE: Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?
(10-06-2013 05:12 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(10-06-2013 03:56 PM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  Perhaps you're getting hung up on semantics. You can believe that the chair will hold you based upon prior experience and supporting (pun intended) evidence. Most things you do are based on the same belief system: switching on a light, stepping on the brake, or salting your tater tots. You know what the effect or result should be based upon prior experience. With religion, it's all about faith. Faith, by definition, is believing in something without proof. For example, if I handed you one of those Staples EASY buttons and told you that if you press it tapioca pudding will rain in your kitchen, you could choose to believe me on faith. There is no faith required to disbelieve.

Not smoking is not a habit, if it were everything that you don't do would be considered a habit. You would literally have millions of habits: not being hot by a train, not eating rocks, not traveling to nearby star systems, etc. Omitting or excluding activities from your life does not make them habitual.

I think you hit the nail on the head here on two counts.

The primary one is "expectations" from prior experience.

The seconday one is the semantics issue. I think it is more accurate to say
"I trust this chair will support me based on my previous experience of having sat on it and it did not collapse".

And while the tapioca pudding raining in your kitchen is hilarious, I think a better analogy in comparing a belief in gods would be holding a belief that furniture placement brings good or bad fortune and so do numbers.

The Chinese, for example, are incredibly superstitious

http://library.thinkquest.org/08aug/0160...tions.html
http://www.chinese-traditions-and-cultur...tions.html

But so is the rest of world, read some of these batshit beliefs

http://www.corsinet.com/trivia/scary.html

And of course, the biggest batshit beliefs can always be found in religious dogmas designed to manipulate and control the masses

Sky daddies, resurrections, virgin births, souls, transubstatiation, spirits, talking snakes, thought police etc.

There is only one core belief I hold that has never been tested but I hold sacred, and that is that my lovely wife would take everything we own, cut my balls of and feed them to the alligators if I ever cheated...and that my friends is NOT superstition. Unsure

Big Grin
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10-06-2013, 10:25 PM
RE: Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?
Girly pretends to believe, I don't believe but I can pretend to pull it off as necessary, shit I can do it so good I can fool myself.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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