Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?
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10-06-2013, 10:30 PM
RE: Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?
Faith is not believing in something without evidence. It's exactly the opposite. It's believing in something because of the evidence, whether the evidence is from prior experience, historical evidence, archaeological evidence, and so on. And yes, not smoking for instance is a habit and a good one at that. All habits are not bad ones. Not eating fatty foods is another good habit. Some other ones are: not getting drunk, not spending too much money, not putting your feet too close to a lawn mower, etc. etc.... Do I need to go on. So yes, choosing not to believe in something is a belief in and of itself. Atheism is a belief system. I'm not sure why atheists get so upset when they are called out on this. Why wouldn't, you, as an atheist want to admit that your belief system is that there is no God? If you are so proud and certain that atheism is true and correct, why not come out and say that is your belief system? Why try to play all of these verbal gymnastics trying to say that you have no belief when it comes to spiritual things and eternal things. It's obvious that you have a belief, a religion, and a world-view. It's just that your religion is one without God. It's not too late, though. You can change your belief system at anytime. Don't let other atheists talk you out of the greatest decision you couldl ever make in your life. tb
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10-06-2013, 10:36 PM
RE: Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?
Okay, common sense clearly isn't working here. Let me try something.

*waves hand*

"These are not the beliefs you are looking for"

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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10-06-2013, 10:44 PM (This post was last modified: 10-06-2013 10:50 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?
(10-06-2013 10:30 PM)tblanch777 Wrote:  Faith is not believing in something without evidence. It's exactly the opposite. It's believing in something because of the evidence, whether the evidence is from prior experience, historical evidence, archaeological evidence, and so on. And yes, not smoking for instance is a habit and a good one at that. All habits are not bad ones. Not eating fatty foods is another good habit. Some other ones are: not getting drunk, not spending too much money, not putting your feet too close to a lawn mower, etc. etc.... Do I need to go on. So yes, choosing not to believe in something is a belief in and of itself. Atheism is a belief system. I'm not sure why atheists get so upset when they are called out on this. Why wouldn't, you, as an atheist want to admit that your belief system is that there is no God? If you are so proud and certain that atheism is true and correct, why not come out and say that is your belief system? Why try to play all of these verbal gymnastics trying to say that you have no belief when it comes to spiritual things and eternal things. It's obvious that you have a belief, a religion, and a world-view. It's just that your religion is one without God. It's not too late, though. You can change your belief system at anytime. Don't let other atheists talk you out of the greatest decision you couldl ever make in your life. tb

I am my own personal Jesus. My own personal Lord and Savior. The withered testicles of the Christ. I am my own Maker. ... That is The Word.

P.S. Fuck, I thought I was posting in the "I Am Drunk" thread. Ah well, fuck it, I'll let it ride. Tongue

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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10-06-2013, 10:49 PM
RE: Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?
(10-06-2013 04:32 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(10-06-2013 08:47 AM)tblanch777 Wrote:  "No belief" is so hard to grasp because there is no such thing as "no belief". Every action we take or thought we think or word we say is based upon our belief in something. For instance, if I decide to sit down in a chair I do so based upon my belief that the chair is trustworthy and will hold me up. I don't sit down in the chair if I know it will fall apart on me. Having a belief doesn't mean that I always have to consciously think about it before I choose to act on it. I don't always think about the chair holding me up before I sit down in it. But that doesn't mean that my belief in the chair holding me up doesn't exist. So, I challenge you to give me an example where "belief" is absent. Yes, like it or not, you atheists out there have a belief. I believe it's a wrong belief, but it's a belief nonetheless. The belief is you believe that God doesn't exist. It's not a "non-belief". It's a definite belief system and one that is very dangerous to your health, but it's still a belief. Your buddy Seth was asked the question whether Atheism was a religion. He answered with: "Sure. And not smoking cigarettes is a habit." His kind of logic is similar to yours. He believes that not believing in something means he has a non-belief or a non-religion. His logic as well as yours has a major flaw in it. Has he ever heard of a good habit? Isn't not smoking cigarettes a good habit? In the same way, isn't not believing in God still believing in something. It sure is and to say otherwise goes against the very nature of logic that you and Seth say you have. Anyway, let me know what you think. Thanks, tb

I hold no beliefs about chairs being able to hold me. I assume either it will, or based on my judgment it won't. There isn't a need for belief in that. .

Your assuming my disbelief, if you will, is based on something other than evidence. I dismiss the bible as being proof of any diety's existence.

I also find your usage of the term "you atheists" to be rather insulting. Like when my grandma used to yell at the neighborhood kids. "You kids get off my lawn" and later, "you college students with your books and education...."

I won't get into her racial slurs, since those mostly began with "those..."

When you liken atheism to a religion it's like saying bald is a hair color.

When you go to sit on a chair, like it or not, you are exercising your faith in that chair. Yes, you might sit down based upon your past experience, but that still is faith or belief being strengthened by past experience. Faith is simply belief or trust in something. And our belief or trust or faith is bolstered or not based upon a number of factors, past experience being one of them. Other things that either increase our level of faith in something or not is historical evidence, archaeological evidence, and so on. The only reason you and I believe that George Washington existed is because of historical evidence. Your choosing to not believe in the Bible as historically accurate is your choice but that doesn't make it any less reliable. Your choosing to not exercise faith in Jesus Christ doesn't hurt him or make him not true. You have chosen a belief system that has no room for God or Jesus Christ, but it is a belief system, nonetheless. I would encourage you to check out the historical accuracy of the Bible and be open to the facts presented therein. And keep in mind, Jesus doesn't want you to believe in Him so he can then take all of the fun out of your life. He is not a cosmic kill joy. Jesus wants to become a part of your life to give you so much more meaning and fulfillment than you could ever have on your own. He's not your enemy. He wants to become your friend. tb
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10-06-2013, 10:55 PM
RE: Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?
tblanch777

777?!?

The number of the beast.

I totally trust/believe/have faith/think/this is really the anti-christ. We should stop all communication at once.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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11-06-2013, 05:55 AM
RE: Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?
(10-06-2013 10:30 PM)tblanch777 Wrote:  Faith is not believing in something without evidence. It's exactly the opposite. It's believing in something because of the evidence, whether the evidence is from prior experience, historical evidence, archaeological evidence, and so on. And yes, not smoking for instance is a habit and a good one at that. All habits are not bad ones. Not eating fatty foods is another good habit. Some other ones are: not getting drunk, not spending too much money, not putting your feet too close to a lawn mower, etc. etc.... Do I need to go on. So yes, choosing not to believe in something is a belief in and of itself. Atheism is a belief system. I'm not sure why atheists get so upset when they are called out on this. Why wouldn't, you, as an atheist want to admit that your belief system is that there is no God? If you are so proud and certain that atheism is true and correct, why not come out and say that is your belief system? Why try to play all of these verbal gymnastics trying to say that you have no belief when it comes to spiritual things and eternal things. It's obvious that you have a belief, a religion, and a world-view. It's just that your religion is one without God. It's not too late, though. You can change your belief system at anytime. Don't let other atheists talk you out of the greatest decision you couldl ever make in your life. tb

That is some serious mumbo-jumbo. You don't get to redefine words for your convenience.

The definition of faith is belief in the absence of evidence. And lacking a belief is not a belief system. I lack belief in dragons and unicorns - does that constitute a belief system? No.

You are conflating atheism with actual belief systems such as naturalism or secular humanism. Some atheists subscribe to one or both of these, but some don't..

You are preaching up the wrong tree here.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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11-06-2013, 08:53 AM
RE: Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?
You are mistaking the word "believe" with the word "assume".

Believing is to accept something as fact that is not an actual fact.

Assuming is to consider something a fact but leaving space for it not being a fact.

I assume that chair will hold me. But, it is entirely possible that it may not.

These words are not interchangeable, otherwise your believing in god would mean that you are aware that it may not be so.

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Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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11-06-2013, 09:18 AM
RE: Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?


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11-06-2013, 01:06 PM
RE: Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?
Why do theists insist that atheism is a belief system. Any time spent here or on other atheist forums should convince theists that there is no consistent world/political/moral/whatever view in atheism.

I for example have always found monogamy an useless imposition by society. It can have its benefits of course but for most mammals it is not common and in fact it can be argued that the more confused the genetic base the better. I suspect this is a minority view here.

I believe the state should wither away and some others here do also. I suspect that the stateless world that those who agree with me envision would be very different individual to individual.

Theists insist that atheism is a belief system, I cannot understand why. I might ask that they explain the basic tenets of this belief system. No god/s does not imply a belief system, no god/s means no god/s. How simple.
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11-06-2013, 01:18 PM
RE: Why is "no belief" so hard to grasp?
I just posted this elsewhere, but I think it's relevant here: The reason that Jesus and God are said to have "Dual natures" is because they are literary characters who represent the complexities of life. It's an attempt to create order in a random universe. Humans see patterns in things, because we need patterns for survival. Things grow at certain times of the year, so we know when to expect to be able to eat them. If certain animals bite you, you are almost certain to die, so you should stay away from them. But our search for patterns, leads us to search for some kind of universal order, which leads us to search for a creator. Such a creator must be infinitely behind us. Therefore we conclude that it must be infinitely ahead of us as well. Since we created the creator, and we fear death, we chose to have our infinite "character" give us immortality. We choose a happy ending. Is it possible that Jesus lived? Yea, I guess. But he became a character in a book. And one that wasn't written very well. A book that was written by a committee that never met. Much of it was passed down verbally. The only thing they may have had in common, was a need for a happy ending.
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