Why is the Christian God good?
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02-07-2017, 02:09 AM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2017 02:13 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
(01-07-2017 11:32 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(30-06-2017 11:40 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  A lot of religious people think this life is a test, which throws a spanner in the works.

.... someone explain to me why an omniscient god would choose to inflict suffering upon us as a test, when being omniscient that god would already know the outcome of the test ahead of time?

Yeah, it makes absolutely no sense. Some drivel about "free will" is the usual attempt. I've tried to explain before to people that if someone knows everything I'm going to do before I do it, then I have fuck-all free will, as that makes me 100% predictable. But they don't/won't get it. And in fact, God literally chose what I was going to do by setting up the initial conditions of our reality, as he could have set them to be anything.

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02-07-2017, 06:37 AM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
(02-07-2017 02:09 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  
(01-07-2017 11:32 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  .... someone explain to me why an omniscient god would choose to inflict suffering upon us as a test, when being omniscient that god would already know the outcome of the test ahead of time?

Yeah, it makes absolutely no sense. Some drivel about "free will" is the usual attempt. I've tried to explain before to people that if someone knows everything I'm going to do before I do it, then I have fuck-all free will, as that makes me 100% predictable. But they don't/won't get it. And in fact, God literally chose what I was going to do by setting up the initial conditions of our reality, as he could have set them to be anything.

The free will apologetic is so weak, you wouldn't even need omniscience to know things in advance. I could ask someone I know whether or not they would try to feed a hungry child, they could tell me, then I would know. I don't have to starve a kid to figure this out! FacepalmFacepalmFacepalm

What does it say about a deity that thinks starving a kid to determine something which it already knows is a useful thing?

I could have predicted what would have happened in the Garden of Eden much better than YHWH did. Basic human intellect is all that's required to predict certain outcomes. Drinking Beverage

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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02-07-2017, 06:43 AM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
Yeah, it's really fucked up. And what about the kids starving to death, just to see if we will feed them? What kind of test is it for them? Whether they'll believe some horse shit a missionary tells them so that they'll get some food in return?

It's far more plausible that any such "tester" actually doesn't know what will happen, and in fact has no idea elements of his "test" have become self-aware. These kinds of assumptions have become so commonplace that I think people often don't realize they are making them.

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02-07-2017, 02:40 PM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
(30-06-2017 02:44 PM)BluePixels Wrote:  Sorry if my logic is hard to follow or understand, and I might just be a complete idiot for asking this, but why is the Christian God good? When we look at the universe as a whole, nothing is inherently 'good' or 'evil'. So, if the universe was created with without having good or evil in mind, why would God be different? In fact, why would God even go out of his way to create life when he knows that it will just bring suffering and pain and misery, like the fear of death? It sounds a lot to me like humans gained morality through learning that there are consequences to their actions, and finding that being good to other people is better than being bad, so that's what they decided their God to be. Or maybe God was just lonely so he decided to make a universe in which there are animals that worship him.

in addition, here's my favourite quotation:
"Man in his arrogance thinks himself a great work worthy of the interposition of a deity" - Speech 'Man in his arrogance' By Carl Sagan

Plato's Euthpyhro explores this question. Does God desire good because it is objectively good, or does what God desires good because God desires it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro

Why is supposed absolute goodness absolute? Were the alleged massacres God commanded in the OT good because God commanded them?

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02-07-2017, 07:28 PM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
(02-07-2017 02:40 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  Were the alleged massacres God commanded in the OT good because God commanded them?
Casting (way) back to my days in fundamentalism, my recollection is that it was largely special pleading. God was said to never be evil or mistaken about anything, but also the general mindset was one of authoritarianism -- that punishing evil is an important role for both god and human government. So since we are talking about god as the actor and talking about unambiguous villains as what are acted on, it was untroubling to us and it would not have occurred to us to use the term "genocide". So the special pleading is that god's judgments are always exactly spot-on, but at the same time, a part of us thought that we would be better off / freer from evil if the government were freer to swiftly and decisively punish miscreants without all that troublesome due process. I don't know that this was very well thought through, it was just the general notion that justice is more effective if swiftly executed -- which has some truth to it, but ignores the dangers of not systematically looking at actual evidence and not controlling for various forms of bias.

Also one must keep in mind that the concept of corporate responsibility and corporate judgment is in the mix. This is a foreign concept to secular democracy, but very front-and-center in fundamentalist teaching. The notion is that god will not only judge individuals for individual actions, but will judge families, cities, nations, and, ultimately, the world, for corporate actions. There is some vaguely defined notion that the truly righteous "remnant" within those larger groups will kinda-sorta escape such corporate judgments, but also the threat that if we allow horrors like gay marriage, homosexuality generally, licentiousness, etc., even the protection afforded by membership among the righteous is jeopardized.
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02-07-2017, 09:59 PM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
(30-06-2017 09:44 PM)Alla Wrote:  God's standard is good because it is the way (the only way) to eternal progression and fullness of joy. There are no other reasons why it is good.

Presupposing your god exists... that doesn't necessarily equate with it being a "good" god. How can you be so sure it's not a capricious, bad god, deliberately leading you astray for its own perverse pleasure, and laughing behind its hand at your possible misfortunes?

You claim this god of yours is the only way to attain full joy, but then you can't be 100% certain of this—it's only a calculated guess on your part Alla. This belief of yours (with no evidence) is what defines your "faith" in your god. As an atheist, I also have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow morning, but it's not in any way like the similar faith that you have in an imaginary god.

And I in no way can be certain that the sun will rise tomorrow morning, but all the empirical scientific evidence gathered over thousands of years supports my belief.

On the other hand, your belief in the goodness of your god is totally lacking in any empirical evidence.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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03-07-2017, 12:36 AM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
(02-07-2017 09:59 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(30-06-2017 09:44 PM)Alla Wrote:  God's standard is good because it is the way (the only way) to eternal progression and fullness of joy. There are no other reasons why it is good.

Presupposing your god exists... that doesn't necessarily equate with it being a "good" god. How can you be so sure it's not a capricious, bad god, deliberately leading you astray for its own perverse pleasure, and laughing behind its hand at your possible misfortunes?

You claim this god of yours is the only way to attain full joy, but then you can't be 100% certain of this—it's only a calculated guess on your part Alla. This belief of yours (with no evidence) is what defines your "faith" in your god. As an atheist, I also have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow morning, but it's not in any way like the similar faith that you have in an imaginary god.

And I in no way can be certain that the sun will rise tomorrow morning, but all the empirical scientific evidence gathered over thousands of years supports my belief.

On the other hand, your belief in the goodness of your god is totally lacking in any empirical evidence.

I'd go further and say that the lack of goodness of "God" has a lot of evidence to support it. Almost all of reality, basically. It's a harsh, indifferent place which is about the worst environment that could have been made for us. Even on the one tiny speck of rock which we've managed to eke out an existence, we get fucking cancer from our heat/light source.

Oh yeah, and then there's cancer.




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03-07-2017, 01:55 PM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
(03-07-2017 12:36 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  
(02-07-2017 09:59 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Presupposing your god exists... that doesn't necessarily equate with it being a "good" god. How can you be so sure it's not a capricious, bad god, deliberately leading you astray for its own perverse pleasure, and laughing behind its hand at your possible misfortunes?

You claim this god of yours is the only way to attain full joy, but then you can't be 100% certain of this—it's only a calculated guess on your part Alla. This belief of yours (with no evidence) is what defines your "faith" in your god. As an atheist, I also have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow morning, but it's not in any way like the similar faith that you have in an imaginary god.

And I in no way can be certain that the sun will rise tomorrow morning, but all the empirical scientific evidence gathered over thousands of years supports my belief.

On the other hand, your belief in the goodness of your god is totally lacking in any empirical evidence.

I'd go further and say that the lack of goodness of "God" has a lot of evidence to support it. Almost all of reality, basically. It's a harsh, indifferent place which is about the worst environment that could have been made for us. Even on the one tiny speck of rock which we've managed to eke out an existence, we get fucking cancer from our heat/light source.

Oh yeah, and then there's cancer.




I take the OP to be "The Problem of Evil" conundrum - how can a God who is all good allow evil to exist? The solution to the Problem of Evil is Free Will in a Christian's eyes, and the idea is so pervasive in the theology that you learn it as a very young child and are thus "hard wired" to believe this without going thru a lot of difficulty in rethinking this concept. While I don't think the following list exactly what the OP is asking for (it's not the root cause so much as the though process Christians will use) In a nutshell, the Christian rationale is:

1) God made a perfect world
2) God put intelligent being in the world with free will
3) Intelligent beings disobey God
4) Because God is infinitely Just as well as Good, the world is irreparably "broken" and "fallen" (no fvcking clue why)
5) God gives man many many tries to get right with God, but they always fail
6) God sends his Son to open a permanent door to allow man to get right with God thru faith, repentance and begging for mercy
7) God will remake the world perfect again at a future time.

Lately, my biggest question in all this would be - If God is omnipotent, then why even create anything? Why not just do simulations in your mind? That should be sufficient since you would know exactly how anything would play out without having to create people who will be destined for eternal damnation at birth.

I think there are huge contradictions between Free Will, Omnipotence and God's Intervention at various points of time thru history. IMHO, these are some of the questions that most Christian's don't even want to address. Also, I don't think most Christians actually believe in the Abrahamic God so much as the want to believe in him.
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03-07-2017, 04:08 PM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
(30-06-2017 09:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  Because He wants to have fullness of joy. Only those who are good and do good can have it.

So, mortal men can become good like Him.

(30-06-2017 09:44 PM)Alla Wrote:  God's standard is good because it is the way(the only way) to eternal progression and fullness of joy. There are no other reasons why it is good.

A taste of god's love from the book of Mormon.

Quote:1 Nephi 13:15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.

A little context: Descendants of Nephis (Europeans (beautiful white people)) had the right to kill the Lamanites (Native Americans(Evil dark-skinned)


Quote:1 Nephi 21:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; they shall be drunken with their own blood as with sweet wine; and all flesh shall know that I, the Lord, am thy Savior and thy Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

Quote:2 Nephi 9:24 And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it.
Quote:2 Nephi 10:2 For behold, the promises which we have obtained are promises unto us according to the flesh; wherefore, as it has been shown unto me that many of our children shall perish in the flesh because of unbelief, nevertheless, God will be merciful unto many; and our children shall be restored, that they may come to that which will give them the true knowledge of their Redeemer.

And Many Many more.

Most with him sending people to hell for not being baptisd, questioning church leaders, or disbelieving.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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03-07-2017, 06:42 PM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
(30-06-2017 10:36 PM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  So, when God sanctioned the murders of Job's family and servants, and the wanton destruction of Job's property, that was a good thing?

> So, when God sanctioned the murders of thousands of innocent Egyptian boys, that was a good thing?

> So, when God sanctioned the practice of slavery, that was a good thing?

> So, when God sanctioned wars of conquest in his name, that was a good thing?

Hmm, what is "good"? and according to whom?

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