Why is the Christian God good?
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04-07-2017, 02:29 PM (This post was last modified: 04-07-2017 02:33 PM by Robvalue.)
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
I agree that good/evil, and morality, are subjective value judgements.

However, what is not in dispute, is what any particular person feels about what is happening to them. If they don't like it, then it's bad/suffering from their point of view. Anyone else's opinion is irrelevant.

Of course, when we talk about human interactions, we have very limited power and resources. We simply can't wipe away all the things people don't want to happen. And sometimes things that they don't want, at least at the time, can ultimately be beneficial.

However, once you remove the restraints, there is no excuse. A being that could remove all these things upon request, while still achieving whatever weird "goal" it has in mind, would do so if it valued the happiness of its creation. If it cannot achieve this "goal" without allowing these things, then clearly it is not all-powerful. So arbitrary restrictions have to be thrown in to justify this behaviour. Saying it knows better than you what makes you happy is just gibberish also, especially if it involves putting you through things you don't want to happen. If "bad" things are required for eventual increased happiness, then that itself is a rule made by the being to justify its actions to itself, unless you again just throw in these convenient restrictions pulled out your ass.

Why it even has to have a "goal" is unclear, if it's anything other than the continued happiness of its creation. An all-powerful being could just instantly achieve whatever it wanted to. The whole thing is quite silly.

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05-07-2017, 04:55 PM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
(04-07-2017 10:09 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Alla is a Moron...

I am cool with this

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05-07-2017, 05:33 PM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
mordant Wrote:In theory, I suppose. But "god knows best" only goes so far. "If you, being evil, know how to give good things to your children, how much more will your father in heaven give good things to those who know him?" is the rhetorical question in the Bible. In other words (1) good things are done by good people, therefore (2) even better things are done by good gods. And yet ... I took better care of my children, where it was within my power, than god takes care of his children on a good day. I always kept my children from harm in general and death in particular.
You always kept your children from harm and death but not any more. It comes time when your children are ready to learn how to take care of themselves. According to the Gospel of Christ we lived with Father but when we were ready to come here and to learn to take care of ourselves He sent us.
In this world we have plenty of opportunities to learn how to take care of ourselves. We also learn how to fight and to overcome evil. We still can't do many things, we still have many battles to fight but we are certainly making progress. According to the Gospel of Christ it is not possible to become Gods if we don't learn how to fight and to overcome evil in this life(in mortality).
Now I would like to respond to another comment you have made:
"If intentions are good and outcomes are bad, then the at is somewhere between naive and negligent. Since god is supposed to be all-knowing, I'm going with negligent. Repeated negligence is willful negligence and indistinguishable from evil."
If I want my child to learn something from the experiences I will let him/her to have those experiences. But my child will have to remember that choices have consequences.
My intentions are good when I let my child to make his/her own choices and to learn them because it is GOOD for my child to have freedom to make even those choices that will have bad consequences(bad outcomes).

We are here TO LEARN, LEARN, LEARN and not only good things but ALL kind of things.

mordant Wrote:The Biblical claim is that god IS unconstrained and un-obligated by societal morality.
I don't remember such claim in the Bible.

mordant Wrote:As soon as god "feels constrained" in any way he is no longer all powerful.
God has moral agency to break any eternal law any time. But according to the Gospel He doesn't wish to break eternal laws. When He can but doesn't want to He is still all-powerful. But the moment God breaks at least one eternal law He can not be God anymore. He becomes fallen God the same moment.

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05-07-2017, 06:06 PM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
Robvalue Wrote:However, what is not in dispute, is what any particular person feels about what is happening to them. If they don't like it, then it's bad/suffering from their point of view. Anyone else's opinion is irrelevant.
When I have bad things happen to me I ask God one question: "what should I learn from this?" Every Moron, umm, I wanted to say, every Mormon knows that "Why?" question is not the question we have to ask. We, Mormons, already know why bad things have to happen to ALL people.
when I have an answer I say:" this bad thing was certainly a blessing(good thing)"

Robvalue Wrote:If "bad" things are required for eventual increased happiness,
Bad things are required for this purpose -to fight and to learn to overcome them. When we overcome bad things we become more powerful. We become more like Gods.
Only those who learn how to fight and to overcome bad/evil things can become all-powerful one day.

Robvalue Wrote:Why it even has to have a "goal" is unclear, if it's anything other than the continued happiness of its creation. An all-powerful being could just instantly achieve whatever it wanted to.
The goal is not continued happiness. The goal is "fullness of joy". Big difference.
God's don't have continued happiness. Sometimes Gods even cry. But they have fullness of joy. Only those who use their moral agency and overcome/fight evil can experience fullness of joy. Gods have moral agency and they make right choices by using this agency. When we make right choices we have joy. When we are programmed to do good or when we are forced to do good we are the most miserable beings in the whole infinite space.

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05-07-2017, 06:15 PM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
(05-07-2017 05:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  
mordant Wrote:In theory, I suppose. But "god knows best" only goes so far. "If you, being evil, know how to give good things to your children, how much more will your father in heaven give good things to those who know him?" is the rhetorical question in the Bible. In other words (1) good things are done by good people, therefore (2) even better things are done by good gods. And yet ... I took better care of my children, where it was within my power, than god takes care of his children on a good day. I always kept my children from harm in general and death in particular.
You always kept your children from harm and death but not any more. It comes time when your children are ready to learn how to take care of themselves.
Yeah, I know ... it was time for my son to learn a lesson. I guess he did.

This is where I part company with theists. You don't even realize what a dick you're being ... or what dickishnish you're excusing in your god. Or at least I'm giving you that benefit of the doubt.
(05-07-2017 05:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  If I want my child to learn something from the experiences I will let him/her to have those experiences. But my child will have to remember that choices have consequences.
My intentions are good when I let my child to make his/her own choices and to learn them because it is GOOD for my child to have freedom to make even those choices that will have bad consequences(bad outcomes).
Don't ever presume to judge my deceased loved ones or assume their sufferings or demise was because of their choices.
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05-07-2017, 06:34 PM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2017 06:44 PM by Alla.)
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
mordant Wrote:Don't ever presume to judge my deceased loved ones or assume their sufferings or demise was because of their choices.
I don't. I never did.
Sometimes we suffer because of choices other people make. Sometimes we suffer because it is nobody's fault.
Sometimes we suffer because of our own choices
The point is to fight and to overcome evil no matter who or what causes it.

mordant Wrote:Yeah, I know ... it was time for my son to learn a lesson. I guess he did.
Or may be you learned a lesson. Or not.
sometimes bad things happen to our children so we can learn something.
Sometimes bad things happen to us so other people can learn something.

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05-07-2017, 06:38 PM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2017 06:42 PM by Alla.)
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
I BELIEVE

Death of physical body is a beginning of new experiences for the intelligence(spirit/me).
When God let us die it means it is time for something new.
Sometimes death is escape.

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05-07-2017, 06:39 PM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
double post

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05-07-2017, 07:27 PM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
(05-07-2017 06:34 PM)Alla Wrote:  
mordant Wrote:Don't ever presume to judge my deceased loved ones or assume their sufferings or demise was because of their choices.
I don't. I never did.
Sometimes we suffer because of choices other people make. Sometimes we suffer because it is nobody's fault.
Sometimes we suffer because of our own choices
The point is to fight and to overcome evil no matter who or what causes it.
This is the same as "god sometimes answers prayer with yes, sometimes no, sometimes not now". It is a meaningless statement insofar as the efficacy of prayer is concerned. With a statement like "sometimes it's our fault, sometimes it's someone else's, sometimes it's no one's" you have no way to even determine that prayer changes anything.

It is not an issue for me because I see no good reason to believe in prayer or in any deity.
(05-07-2017 06:34 PM)Alla Wrote:  
mordant Wrote:Yeah, I know ... it was time for my son to learn a lesson. I guess he did.
Or may be you learned a lesson. Or not.
sometimes bad things happen to our children so we can learn something.
Sometimes bad things happen to us so other people can learn something.
In point of fact, 100% of the time things just happen for no reason at all. Sometimes you can point to an event as an outcome of some cause, sometimes you can't. This is a far more acceptable state of affairs for me than it is for you. You have to explain why your loving interventionist god doesn't intervene in ways that are indistinguishable from random happenstance; I don't.
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05-07-2017, 09:15 PM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
mordant Wrote:This is the same as "god sometimes answers prayer with yes, sometimes no, sometimes not now". It is a meaningless statement insofar as the efficacy of prayer is concerned. With a statement like "sometimes it's our fault, sometimes it's someone else's, sometimes it's no one's" you have no way to even determine that prayer changes anything.
True, there is no way to know, only to believe that prayer changed something. But prayer always helps when I receive an answer. It is always good to know the answer before the outcome. It helps me to prepare myself in case if the answer is "no". Even this answer comforts me and brings peace.

mordant Wrote:In point of fact, 100% of the time things just happen for no reason at all.
I don't believe that this statement is true. I don't know the percentage but I agree that many things happen as accidents.

mordant Wrote:Sometimes you can point to an event as an outcome of some cause, sometimes you can't. This is a far more acceptable state of affairs for me than it is for you. You have to explain why your loving interventionist god doesn't intervene in ways that are indistinguishable from random happenstance; I don't.
True, you don't have to. But I really don't mind to explain this, to myself. If it was distinguishable then I wouldn't have to have faith. According to the Gospel without faith is not possible to become like Gods.

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