Why is the Christian God good?
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05-07-2017, 09:24 PM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2017 09:31 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
(05-07-2017 05:33 PM)Alla Wrote:  God has moral agency to break any eternal law any time. But according to the Gospel He doesn't wish to break eternal laws.

Nice story, but there is nowhere in the gospels that it says that, and you can't reference it anywhere.
Saying a god has "moral agency" means it is subject to the laws of the universe, not in terms of it's *possible actions*, but in a larger sense that it's actions are that of an "agent".
A real god would simply be master of Reality, and not constrained by any sort of "agency".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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05-07-2017, 10:01 PM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
Bucky Ball Wrote:Nice story, but there is nowhere in the gospels that it says that, and you can't reference it anywhere
I was talking about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. NT Gospels do not have fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Bucky Ball Wrote:Saying a god has "moral agency" means it is subject to the laws of the universe,
Yes, He is subject to eternal laws. Every God is subject to eternal laws. We experience joy when we chose to obey laws.
Gods want to have joy. Yes, Gods choose to be righteous.
Bucky Ball Wrote:A real god would simply be master of Reality, and not constrained by any sort of "agency
Master of Reality who is not constrained by any sort of agency is someone who never existed, doesn't exist and will never exist. It is false god.

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05-07-2017, 10:16 PM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
(05-07-2017 10:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  I was talking about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. NT Gospels do not have fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

But you do. Isn't that special.
You cook up any gospel you like that you need to make your point.

Quote:Yes, He is subject to eternal laws. Every God is subject to eternal laws. We experience joy when we chose to obey laws.

Then why does he cause so much evil and suffering ? A god that is subject to anything is not the creator of Reality. You have a very stupid powerless god there.

Quote:Gods want to have joy. Yes, Gods choose to be righteous.

A god that "chooses to be righteous" is no god. The standard of righteousness then exists apart from the god, and he did not create it. Who did ?
You're kind of a dumb-ass apologist.


Quote:Master of Reality who is not constrained by any sort of agency is someone who never existed, doesn't exist and will never exist. It is false god.

Thanks for admitting your god does not exist. Thumbsup

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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05-07-2017, 11:21 PM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
(05-07-2017 06:06 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Robvalue Wrote:If "bad" things are required for eventual increased happiness,
Bad things are required for this purpose -to fight and to learn to overcome them. When we overcome bad things we become more powerful. We become more like Gods.
Only those who learn how to fight and to overcome bad/evil things can become all-powerful one day.

Except in the cases when the "bad things" break us into despair or turns us into awful people: The lesson learned is anger and cruelty towards others in an ongoing cycle.
But yeah, bully for those who only suffer a little bit and feel stronger afterwards.

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06-07-2017, 08:24 AM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
(05-07-2017 11:21 PM)M. Linoge Wrote:  
(05-07-2017 06:06 PM)Alla Wrote:  Bad things are required for this purpose -to fight and to learn to overcome them. When we overcome bad things we become more powerful. We become more like Gods.
Only those who learn how to fight and to overcome bad/evil things can become all-powerful one day.

Except in the cases when the "bad things" break us into despair or turns us into awful people: The lesson learned is anger and cruelty towards others in an ongoing cycle.
But yeah, bully for those who only suffer a little bit and feel stronger afterwards.
The other night my wife & I stumbled on the story of a "killing spree" in (IIRC) N. Carolina some years back. A couple of ex cons with horrible childhood abuse origins murdered several families in their homes, including young children. Generally by slitting their throats. In one case one of the kids was at a sleep-over, they tied up the rest of the family and waited for the kid to be dropped off and then killed them all. They also stabbed some guy 40 times and left him for dead, although he "recovered" with a useless arm and deep emotional scars. One of them had also killed his girlfriend on the west coast before heading east for this mayhem. There was a new girlfriend who served as an accomplice, who they also killed.

All of that because, according to Alla, a god-ordained "test" of childhood torture that they failed to learn from apparently -- thus becoming the instrument of more "tests" for several more families. God knows best. Glory be.

I don't know why it's so hard to understand that this was simply a couple of hapless kids brutalized into being brutes who went on to senselessly and (apart from giving vent to pent-up unfocused rage) purposelessly murder innocent people, which caused multiplied suffering for dozens if not hundreds of people. There is no need to insert imaginary beings into the mix and it explains / predicts nothing and in fact simply produces the heartless sorts of statements we see from such believers, where your suffering, no matter how intense, ridiculous, baroque, or cruel, is All For The Best.

To be concise about it: HORSE SHIT.
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06-07-2017, 10:55 AM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
Kid is born with an incurable horrible disease; kid dies in agony. What exactly did the kid learn? What was the point of that?

I see that God is apparently not interested in humans being happy, it wants them to just go through whatever it wants them to goes through, whether they want to or not. This God is a dick.

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06-07-2017, 11:20 AM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
(06-07-2017 08:24 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(05-07-2017 11:21 PM)M. Linoge Wrote:  Except in the cases when the "bad things" break us into despair or turns us into awful people: The lesson learned is anger and cruelty towards others in an ongoing cycle.
But yeah, bully for those who only suffer a little bit and feel stronger afterwards.
The other night my wife & I stumbled on the story of a "killing spree" in (IIRC) N. Carolina some years back. A couple of ex cons with horrible childhood abuse origins murdered several families in their homes, including young children. Generally by slitting their throats. In one case one of the kids was at a sleep-over, they tied up the rest of the family and waited for the kid to be dropped off and then killed them all. They also stabbed some guy 40 times and left him for dead, although he "recovered" with a useless arm and deep emotional scars. One of them had also killed his girlfriend on the west coast before heading east for this mayhem. There was a new girlfriend who served as an accomplice, who they also killed.

All of that because, according to Alla, a god-ordained "test" of childhood torture that they failed to learn from apparently -- thus becoming the instrument of more "tests" for several more families. God knows best. Glory be.

I don't know why it's so hard to understand that this was simply a couple of hapless kids brutalized into being brutes who went on to senselessly and (apart from giving vent to pent-up unfocused rage) purposelessly murder innocent people, which caused multiplied suffering for dozens if not hundreds of people. There is no need to insert imaginary beings into the mix and it explains / predicts nothing and in fact simply produces the heartless sorts of statements we see from such believers, where your suffering, no matter how intense, ridiculous, baroque, or cruel, is All For The Best.

To be concise about it: HORSE SHIT.

Well, according to christian mythology those very murderers who slit the throats of those little children could ask Jesus for forgivness and "truly accept Jesus into their heart and accept him as their lord and savior" and voila! All is forgiven and they pop up to heaven when they die, probably along side the children they murdered. Ain't heaven great?

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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06-07-2017, 11:24 AM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
(06-07-2017 10:55 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Kid is born with an incurable horrible disease; kid dies in agony. What exactly did the kid learn? What was the point of that?

"I burn down your cities-how blind you must be
I take from you your children and you say how blessed are we..."




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06-07-2017, 11:28 AM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
(06-07-2017 10:55 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Kid is born with an incurable horrible disease; kid dies in agony. What exactly did the kid learn? What was the point of that?

I see that God is apparently not interested in humans being happy, it wants them to just go through whatever it wants them to goes through, whether they want to or not. This God is a dick.
Well it's also true that in a sufficiently large-scale perceived / claimed scheme of things, any given suffering is of no consequence. To justify human suffering you have to dehumanize the sufferer, guilt the sufferer, minimize the suffering, or some combination of those things. You certainly can't deny that suffering exists and that people experience it, and you can't deny that god is claimed to be good and benevolent and able to intervene. So the sufferer is always going to come out on the short end of the stick here. It's hidden sin, unlearned lessons, or they are a cog in the service of some far greater good that they can't see and aren't going to be informed about.

So, I have heard, just in the past week, a believer claiming that suffering is not suffering in a non-dualistic / enlightened perspective (and therefore you are whining about something that doesn't exist, but you think it exists because you aren't sufficiently enlightened / elevated / spiritual). This is gaslighting of the first order. I have heard, just this past day, Alla claiming suffering is a lesson or test that is up to the sufferer (or worse, those empathizing with their suffering) to learn. With the hedge that sometimes suffering is without meaning or purpose or discernible cause, so I don't even know what the point of claiming it CAN be a test even is.

So just from those two perspectives:

Suffering isn't real in some absolute spiritual sense, and therefore not a problem in that same sense.

Suffering is a test or lesson for the benefit of the sufferer and/or or their loved ones.

Others say suffering is a test of faith (without making any sense about why faith would need testing and who benefits from the test results).

I think it's far simpler to apply Occam's Razor here. Suffering has causes, some of which we have some control over, some of which we don't, some of which we can ease, some of which we can't. Suffering diminishes the sufferer and often people around them, so we want to do everything we can to ease / remove / prevent it. Not doing so is immoral. Structuring societies that tolerate or overlook suffering is immoral.

Suffering does not help anyone, and does not have some role in making pleasure meaningful by contrast. As I've said many times, there are plenty of contrasts between pleasure and not-pleasure short of suffering, and between different degrees of pleasure. It is a fallacy that a world without suffering is colorless and uninteresting, where everyone indolently takes pleasure for granted and doesn't even notice it. A world that knows no suffering does not lack for things to be grateful for. Teaching otherwise is nonsense designed to overlook / ignore / excuse suffering that people should be doing something about.
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06-07-2017, 11:38 AM
RE: Why is the Christian God good?
(06-07-2017 11:20 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Well, according to christian mythology those very murderers who slit the throats of those little children could ask Jesus for forgivness and "truly accept Jesus into their heart and accept him as their lord and savior" and voila! All is forgiven and they pop up to heaven when they die, probably along side the children they murdered. Ain't heaven great?
Yes, according to dominant fundamentalist theology, the most vile sinner can be redeemed. In fairness, according to significant minority positions, there are unpardonable sins and scenarios where salvation is lost / rescinded or unobtainable.

The majority position comes from the notion that "sin is sin", that there is in a sense no such thing as degrees or severity of sin, only varying consequences. The varying of penalties according to impact of transgressions is considered the province of secular justice systems. The fact is that god cannot be sullied by your presence if you have even the slightest sin staining your soul, and you must as a result be excluded from his presence unless those sins are "covered" or in a sense posted to some substitute's account (Jesus). It then follows that the sort of sin isn't an obstacle to forgiveness, so long as you offer up the belief and fealty demanded by the deity.

They don't see it as a "get out of jail free" pass, and they don't see it as unfair that a child who stole from the cookie jar gets the same free ticket to perdition as someone who committed cruel mass genocide. "Sin is sin" and the penalty and the remedy cut both ways: they don't have anything to do with the severity of the sin.

So it goes in fundy-land.
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