Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
20-11-2016, 11:35 AM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(20-11-2016 07:57 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  No, there isn't. There is a pushback by the Muslim world's most extreme members, who form a sizable minority of their population, who take the Qur'an as absolutely, 100% literally true and given directly by Gabriel from God to the Prophet Muhammad. As such, they feel that humanist values and liberties, as expressed by Western (post-Enlightenment) culture, are such a threat that they wish to conquer or otherwise repress it. Oh, it started out as "keep out of our society", but it has become expansionist and aggressive because we refused to do so.

It's really simple: do you deny that Islamists strap bombs to themselves, attack people with machineguns, and otherwise murder people because they think Allah commands them to do so? If you do not deny this, then how can you not call such an ideology inherently evil?

I see misguided people who are usually under the sway of monetary incentives to do injustice. Who also happen to be Islamic. Where you see extremists I see mercenaries who camouflage themselves with religion.


Quote:Wasn't asking you to solve it. Was pointing out that your "it's not that bad" is not true for a great many of us. Spend some time perusing the Introductions forum, reading the stories of people who come here seeking community after being ejected from their old one after expressing doubt.

(20-11-2016 05:29 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  He says it right at the beginning of the documentary

And then he goes on to clarify exactly what he means by that: the literalist, unquestionable ideology that suppresses free thought and free people. It is against everything for which any post-Enlightenment thinker stands, especially one who knows the benefits of the Scientific Method of thought.

As I said before, if you can name one other ideology that is producing more deliberate evil than that of Islam, I'd like to know what it is.

Thank GOD you used that word! Ideology! Simple! Big Grin

Capitalism. Dodgy

Quote:Now that's a strawman.

Of course the actions of one man don't reflect on another man. However, an ideology which drives some members to do horrible things, and yet is accepted by others (even if they do not commit the same acts) makes them accomplices in the murder. An easy example is White Supremacy. Not every member of the Klan wants to kill black people... and very few do. But they stand by an ideology that says the races must be kept separate, by force if necessary, and when a few of them take that to the extreme and actually use that force, I am able to say that it is an evil ideology.

This is association fallacy.

Quote:I'm in one of the most racist towns I've ever inhabited, which says a lot seeing as I'm from the deep South. The reason my particular complex is full of Muslims is that they have sort of banded together for safety, so to speak. As far as I'm aware, they're the only ones in town. There's not even a mosque for two hours in any direction, until you come to the metropolitan areas of St. Louis and Memphis.

Reminds me of my own ancestors who came to America as immigrants.

Quote:Video: The Islamic State hurls accused gays off rooftops to screams of “Allahu akbar!”
MARCH 30, 2016 8:19 AM BY RAYMOND IBRAHIM

In the following video clip, Islamic State members are seen hurling four people, one by one, to their deaths — all to triumphant shouts of “Allahu akbar!” The video was likely made last summer in Mosul according to local sources. Throwing people off rooftops is an Islamic punishment often reserved for homosexuals.


https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/03/video...lahu-akbar

Nah. Not evil at all.

Mercenaries will usually do anything for money. If you think for even a moment about all of this, ISIS knows that this sort of thing is going to piss people off, that's why they do it. If they had ANY intention at all to be a long standing state they would follow the conduct of war set out by so many conventions. But they don't and they don't for one reason, Assad unlike Ghaddafi managed to fend off these mercenary scum until his allies (Iran and Russia) could come to his assistance. But to that extent Assad also wasn't aistriked by Nato like Ghaddafi was. Poor Ghaddafi.

I told Capitalism was worse than Islam.

No Isis and its puppet masters saw 'progress' grind to a halt so this entire thing has been created to cause an uproar to gain enough support at home for western intervention.

Quote:They have plenty of knowledge along that line, from ex Syrian Army soldiers, Hezbollah fighters, ex Iraqi Army soldiers, and any of the number of militants who have been fighting for decades. Their tanks were captured from the Iraqi army.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_e...g_vehicles

I don't think there would be to many at all former iraqi soldiers, syrian soldiers and certainly not Hezbollah fighters fighting for Isis. At least 30,000 soldiers fighting for Isis are foreigners. In september 2014 Isis had about 20-30,000 people fighting for it, that foreigners wasn't done until the end of 2015 giving it 1 and a half years to grow. Isis would have had anywhere between 60,000-90,000 people fighting for it that makes 1/2 to 1/3 of the people fighting confirmed mercenaries.

Quote:And we know who's buying their oil. Syria

That is the most counter intuitive thing I've ever heard.



Quote:Oh, not at all. I think we (the USA) has picked up where the British oil industry left off, after WW2. I wrote a paper in college about how WW2 was largely about the control of the world oil reserves by British and Dutch industry, and attempts by the other empires to wrest it from them. In the aftermath, the USA became the de facto controller of most of it, and the purchase of oil went from Pounds Sterling to the "Petro-Dollar", as it's often called.

Welcome to the second cold war.

Quote:That was a lot of reading to come to one basic conclusion: if you speak of a religion with contempt, then you hate the members of that religion. That's utter bullshit.

I particularly liked in the first one, where Owen Jones uses Dawkins' comment that he's entitled to make comments about Islam despite not having read the Qur'an just as he's entitled to make comments about Nazism despite not having read Mein Kampf as evidence that Dawkins is comparing the Qur'an to Mein Kampf.

It's utterly false. He's saying that his opinion and criticism is directed at Islam, not on the book that generates people's belief in Islam, because he sees the behaviors and attitudes of people who practice Islam... in the same way that we know the behaviors and attitudes of people who read Mein Kampf. It does not mean that he is equating one and the other. Posting disingenuous stuff like that is not going to endear me to your argument.

@RichardDawkins
For me, the horror of Hitler is matched by bafflement at the ovine stupidity of his followers. Increasingly feel the same about Islamism.

You realize he just essentially called every muslim in the world a nazi right?

Quote:But it gets worse! When Dawkins gripes about a demand by a Muslim speaker to have the room gender-segregated during a debate between that Muslim and Lawrence Krauss, a demand which the college (UCL) capitulated, Dawkins directed his ire at the ridiculousness of giving in to such a demand in our free society. The dishonest author tries to say, "What if he had said Jew instead of Muslim!?!"

Well, if the Jews tried to impose gender segregation on a university before they'd speak there, I suppose he would have said Jew. Or whatever other group pulled such a ludicrous move.

Firstly we in the west segregate our restrooms based on sex so you know, that's a thing and a double standard. If you say that well we segregate our bathrooms to protect women, the muslims were doing the same under that belief.

Secondly the state of israel which also happens to be a predominently jewish state. does in fact segregate. However I do not say all jews because Israel does NOT represent all of Judaism, and I want to make that very clear, just like how islamic 'terrorists' do not represent all of Islam.





Quote:The second article, when it isn't rehashing the arguments in the first, basically points out that a snooty, upper class British person is imperialist and snooty in his outlook and often condescending in his tone.

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you! Rolleyes

That or other forms of social conformity pressure, such that the repercussions for disobedience to civil norms are too great for the evil person to risk. Religion, I believe, evolved out of that concept of tribal control and group identity. But I do get your point.

The opposite holds true as well, social conformity, pressure, and repercussions can cause good people to do bad things as well. Take many soviet troops at the end of WWII that was the rape of Eastern Europe.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-11-2016, 04:19 PM (This post was last modified: 20-11-2016 06:09 PM by Celestial_Wonder.)
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
Further more I've read a good portion of the quran, and often it is misquoted to give the pretense that it is violent. Now I can not say that for all of the Quran but for what I read it was hardly an object of terror, no more so than say the bible is, and I'd go on a limb here and say it was far more pleasing to read than the bible. Though not pleasing enough to keep my interest to read all of it.

(20-11-2016 08:02 AM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  
(18-11-2016 06:51 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  if you're saying science requires no belief, are you saying that it runs on... FAITH!?

Big Grin

What's the difference between faith and belief?

Enough not to get stoned it seems.Consider
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-11-2016, 06:14 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(20-11-2016 04:19 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Further more I've read a good portion of the quran, and often it is misquoted to give the pretense that it is violent. Now I can not say that for all of the Quran but for what I read it was hardly an object of terror, no more so than say the bible is, and I'd go on a limb here and say it was far more pleasing to read than the bible. Though not pleasing enough to keep my interest to read all of it.

I have read the entire Qur'an. I've taken (well audited, actually; my GF at the time was taking the course and I'd often sit in on the class before picking her up to drive her back to our house) a course on "Women and Islam" by an outstandingly talented (as in, she had a real way of getting her message across in front of the class) feminist Muslim professor from Algeria. I too agree that the Bible is much more violent, in general, than the Qur'an, and that most of the verses used to "prove" it's violent are totally misquoted and/or taken out of context.

I do agree with you that Capitalism is the most lethal ideology in the world. However, as for the mercenaries angle and conspiracy theory stuff, I'm just going to leave it alone. I don't find it a valid (or plausible) defense to ignore the ideologues and assert that it's all about money, or that we're deliberately hiring professionals to pretend to be religious assholes. Mercs don't blow themselves up with C4 vests.

And no, he didn't call Muslims Nazis. He said he is just as baffled by the "ovine stupidity" of people who follow one of those ideologies as he is by the other.

If I say that I think Chicago Bears fans are just as ridiculous as Atlanta Falcons fans, I'm not saying that Bears fans and Falcons fans are the same thing.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes RocketSurgeon76's post
20-11-2016, 06:51 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(20-11-2016 06:14 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(20-11-2016 04:19 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Further more I've read a good portion of the quran, and often it is misquoted to give the pretense that it is violent. Now I can not say that for all of the Quran but for what I read it was hardly an object of terror, no more so than say the bible is, and I'd go on a limb here and say it was far more pleasing to read than the bible. Though not pleasing enough to keep my interest to read all of it.

I have read the entire Qur'an. I've taken (well audited, actually; my GF at the time was taking the course and I'd often sit in on the class before picking her up to drive her back to our house) a course on "Women and Islam" by an outstandingly talented (as in, she had a real way of getting her message across in front of the class) feminist Muslim professor from Algeria. I too agree that the Bible is much more violent, in general, than the Qur'an, and that most of the verses used to "prove" it's violent are totally misquoted and/or taken out of context.

I do agree with you that Capitalism is the most lethal ideology in the world. However, as for the mercenaries angle and conspiracy theory stuff, I'm just going to leave it alone. I don't find it a valid (or plausible) defense to ignore the ideologues and assert that it's all about money, or that we're deliberately hiring professionals to pretend to be religious assholes. Mercs don't blow themselves up with C4 vests.

And no, he didn't call Muslims Nazis. He said he is just as baffled by the "ovine stupidity" of people who follow one of those ideologies as he is by the other.

If I say that I think Chicago Bears fans are just as ridiculous as Atlanta Falcons fans, I'm not saying that Bears fans and Falcons fans are the same thing.

Professional is not the term I would use... scum is the word I would use, and they don't need to pretend to be assholes, but they do need to pretend to be religious.

For me, the horror of Hitler is matched by bafflement at the ovine stupidity of his followers. Increasingly feel the same about Islamism.

the horror of Islam is only matched by his bafflement at the ovine stupidity of its followers. He feels the 'same' about islam as he does with nazis, not even accounting for how emotional bias may cloud his better judgment, and this man is a scientist.

This comment was thus born out of a biased mindset from the get go, he is equating the two, and though he is not saying it outright it gives the impression, and that is why he is ESSENTIALLY calling every muslim a nazi. I believe the word I'm looking for here is aspersion.

Defintion of Aspersion

A false or damaging accusation or insinuation:

In this case he is causing damage against the character of Islam by insinuating that it is comparable to Nazism thus making Muslims comparable to Nazis. While at the same time calling all Muslims stupid.

If by your own admission that the bible has more violent ideologies than the quran then that would make christianity (and judaism) a more violent religion. So the thing that would explain the disproportionate numbers (if not mercenary scum) would then be education. I mean if you look at countries with high education compared to countries with low education, you will see their level of violence increase and decrease depending on how well educated its citizens are.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-11-2016, 08:24 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
*sigh*

He's not comparing them to Nazis. He's saying he has the same low opinion of them as he does of Nazis.

I think people who are Vegans (who tend to evangelize about their beliefs) are just as annoying as people who are evangelical Christians telling everyone how "on fire for Jayzus" they are. That does not mean I think Christianity is "comparable" to Veganism... just that my annoyance at the way they bother me is of roughly the same level. Get it?

Geezus, man, reading comprehension!

And this conversation has never been about what is in the scriptures of these religions, but whether the religious culture is one that generates violence. Stop trying to shift the subject. Your contention that there are not True Believers™ driving the Islamist-based violence is both insane and is rejected by every serious scholar and expert on the planet.

As I said, I'm not going to deal with fringe conspiracy theorist buillshit on it. Your evidence does not match. Your verbal-definition equivocations and false equivalence arguments just piss me off.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
20-11-2016, 09:33 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(20-11-2016 08:24 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  *sigh*

He's not comparing them to Nazis. He's saying he has the same low opinion of them as he does of Nazis.

I think people who are Vegans (who tend to evangelize about their beliefs) are just as annoying as people who are evangelical Christians telling everyone how "on fire for Jayzus" they are. That does not mean I think Christianity is "comparable" to Veganism... just that my annoyance at the way they bother me is of roughly the same level. Get it?

Geezus, man, reading comprehension!

Very well lets try that in different manifestation shall we?

For me, the horror of Hitler is matched by bafflement at the ovine stupidity of his followers. Increasingly feel the same about Islamism.

For me, the repulsive appearance of filth covered pigs is matched by sheer disgust at the hippo-esque discharge that come from their posterior. Increasingly feel the same way about Jews.

I mean, I'm not actually calling Jews pigs... so its not a bigoted statement.

(For clarity, I do not actually hold these opinions about jews or pigs.)

Quote:And this conversation has never been about what is in the scriptures of these religions, but whether the religious culture is one that generates violence. Stop trying to shift the subject. Your contention that there are not True Believers™ driving the Islamist-based violence is both insane and is rejected by every serious scholar and expert on the planet.

Driving would imply they were in control and in command, and while they may at the wheel, but the driving instructor is sitting at the side as a passenger telling them what to do. Therefore it isn't these True Believers who are the driving force of it but rather the driving instructor.

Quote:As I said, I'm not going to deal with fringe conspiracy theorist buillshit on it. Your evidence does not match. Your verbal-definition equivocations and false equivalence arguments just piss me off.

Your predisposition to view conspiracies as fringe and 'bullshit' as well as comparing mercanary scum who also happen to be muslim to the entirety of their ideology infers selection bias. In fact I would have thought that you being around so many muslims that you would have come to understood that strapping c4 to their chests is not part of their ideology. In no [art of the Quran, does it say strap c4 to your chest and blow yourself up. What they have in their hadiths I don't know, but given that c4 wasn't around in the time of Muhammad I can only deduce that it probably isn't in their hadiths either.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2016, 07:01 AM (This post was last modified: 21-11-2016 07:07 AM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
Willful ignorance.

Of course most Muslims don't agree with the particular theology/ideology of the bombers. Indeed, all of the Muslims I've ever met (here in the USA) are as appalled by it as anyone. So are most of the ones overseas-- that's why the radicals are killing more Muslims than any other people. The overwhelming majority of Muslims on earth do not follow or in any way sympathize with the radicals. But that means that some of them do (The percent changes by country, indicating that it is cultural, and religion only supplies the excuse.)

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...-for-isis/

You are still misrepresenting what Dawkins was saying there. While I agree he could have worded it much better, I think he's right to express disgust at the fact it's even possible for people who are members of that religion to get to the point that they think they have a mandate from God to kill people who are nonbelievers, to torture and murder homosexuals, to repress women, et cetera.

Again, as I said before, if Jews were doing the same things that far too many Muslims are doing, then I would expect him to say Jews in the same way he said Muslims. Or my people, the Cajuns, if a percent of us were using our Catholic beliefs to repress and/or harm others who did not wish to agree with the Catholic dogmas.

And by "driving", I mean "making people believe things about God that allow others to manipulate them into thinking they'll go to heaven with 72 virgins if they die as martyrs for Islam, even if that means blowing themselves up in a cafe in France, or attacking a hotel in India, or machinegunning people in a shopping mall in Kenya, or killing fellow US soldiers at Fort Hood, or shooting homosexuals in a gay bar in Orlando". Et cetera ad infinitum.

Edit to Add: You know who I think is a "real" Muslim, living up to the ideals that the religion sets out, at least in theory? This kid.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/cover_story...per_cacher

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2016, 08:24 AM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(21-11-2016 07:01 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Willful ignorance.

Of course most Muslims don't agree with the particular theology/ideology of the bombers. Indeed, all of the Muslims I've ever met (here in the USA) are as appalled by it as anyone. So are most of the ones overseas-- that's why the radicals are killing more Muslims than any other people. The overwhelming majority of Muslims on earth do not follow or in any way sympathize with the radicals. But that means that some of them do (The percent changes by country, indicating that it is cultural, and religion only supplies the excuse.)

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...-for-isis/

You are still misrepresenting what Dawkins was saying there. While I agree he could have worded it much better, I think he's right to express disgust at the fact it's even possible for people who are members of that religion to get to the point that they think they have a mandate from God to kill people who are nonbelievers, to torture and murder homosexuals, to repress women, et cetera.

Again, as I said before, if Jews were doing the same things that far too many Muslims are doing, then I would expect him to say Jews in the same way he said Muslims. Or my people, the Cajuns, if a percent of us were using our Catholic beliefs to repress and/or harm others who did not wish to agree with the Catholic dogmas.

And by "driving", I mean "making people believe things about God that allow others to manipulate them into thinking they'll go to heaven with 72 virgins if they die as martyrs for Islam, even if that means blowing themselves up in a cafe in France, or attacking a hotel in India, or machinegunning people in a shopping mall in Kenya, or killing fellow US soldiers at Fort Hood, or shooting homosexuals in a gay bar in Orlando". Et cetera ad infinitum.

Edit to Add: You know who I think is a "real" Muslim, living up to the ideals that the religion sets out, at least in theory? This kid.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/cover_story...per_cacher

I will refrain from saying anything else about this matter for now, I'm awaiting the green light by the mods to post a video. A video I hope to show you, so you can understand just how much of a hypocrite, bigot, and a coward Richard Dawkins is.

Also I'm extremely tired as I just got back from work, I may/probably will change my mind when I get up about my refrain.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2016, 08:33 AM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(21-11-2016 08:24 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  I will refrain from saying anything else about this matter for now, I'm awaiting the green light by the mods to post a video. A video I hope to show you, so you can understand just how much of a hypocrite, bigot, and a coward Richard Dawkins is.

To reiterate:

(19-11-2016 10:14 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  I challenge you to cite links where anyone here has expressed reverence towards Dawkins. Or any other person for that matter.

If no one here has revered Dawkins then you are wasting your time and ours.

To clarify:

Has someone on this site shown reverence to Dawkins?
Has someone on this site expressed admiration for Dawkins beyond his professional credentials?
Has someone on this site exhibited hero-worship for Dawkins?

Again, cite links to posts/threads. The search engine on the forum is pretty good and should make it fairly easy to provide.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Fatbaldhobbit's post
21-11-2016, 03:12 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(21-11-2016 08:33 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(21-11-2016 08:24 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  I will refrain from saying anything else about this matter for now, I'm awaiting the green light by the mods to post a video. A video I hope to show you, so you can understand just how much of a hypocrite, bigot, and a coward Richard Dawkins is.

To reiterate:

(19-11-2016 10:14 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  I challenge you to cite links where anyone here has expressed reverence towards Dawkins. Or any other person for that matter.

If no one here has revered Dawkins then you are wasting your time and ours.

To clarify:

Has someone on this site shown reverence to Dawkins?
Has someone on this site expressed admiration for Dawkins beyond his professional credentials?
Has someone on this site exhibited hero-worship for Dawkins?

Again, cite links to posts/threads. The search engine on the forum is pretty good and should make it fairly easy to provide.

Ding
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: