Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
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22-11-2016, 08:34 AM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(22-11-2016 07:24 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  He could have equally said that he was baffled by the ovine stupidity of islam and its followers without adding Hitler and the Nazis in there. It wasn't me who added more words than he ought to have.

I don't know if you know many Germans, but they're some of the nicest people on the planet, by and large. (I suspect it may have something to do with their national 3-week vacation policy, but that's another topic.) How, then, did a people that nice, that well-educated, and that civilized fall to the poison of Nazi fascism? How did the cultural meme take over enough of their minds to make a nation of followers that set out to conquer the world and suppress, then harrass, then incarcerate entire peoples-- eventually murdering millions of them? Ovine stupidity. An unquestioning follower-culture ideology that can make even a people as great as the Germans turn into Nazis.

How, then, can a religion as hypothetically peaceful as Islam, full of the wonderful people I know who are Muslims, produce large numbers of those who think it's still okay to murder apostates, atheists, and homosexuals? That it's okay to kill in the name of God? Ovine stupidity.

That is all he was saying. Yet everyone felt the need to gasp, "Butbutbut... he called them Nazis!!!" Rolleyes

No, he called any culture that advocates blindly following an ideology no matter how harmful it has grown, no matter how many members have turned it from a basic idea (in the case of Nazis, nationalist pride and the idea that their civilization came to its height because of the inherent superiority of their race, which was a common belief in the 1930s, not just among Germans) into something violent and horrifying, is worthy of the same degree of scorn, and for the same reason.

That does not mean that he called the Muslims Nazis, any more than in my above example, my criticism of the often-violent, often misogynistic, hyper macho, and baseless regional pride among the culture of sports fanatics makes my statement an equivalence between Nazis and sports fans.

Was it a bad choice on his part, given the emotional reaction people were certain to have to using "Nazi" in any sentence with any other group? Yeah, it was. He should have known people would read it that way. But that doesn't mean it's what he was trying to say.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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22-11-2016, 08:38 AM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(21-11-2016 07:17 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(21-11-2016 07:10 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Yes. You have found one poster that marginally fulfilled the conditions I stated.

You are most welcome.

As RS76 noted, you found one poster whose sentiments where not unreasonable or in anyway objectionable. While your citation meets the criteria of my poorly worded challenge, it does not justify your tirade.

In the interests of research, I did some forum searches, title only, with the following results:

72 "pope" (religious)
408 "jesus" (religious)
76 "dawkins" (atheist)
57 "hitchens" (atheist)
43 "clinton" (political)
160 "trump" (political)

Scanning through the "dawkins" threads, there's a mix. Most seem positive, a few negative, some humorous. Note that the "deify dawkins" thread is humorous.

I don't really like playing statistics, but it seems like a pretty reasonable dispersion. Dawkins is a very visible atheist, a celebrity but he is not the focus of the site.


You are lecturing people about views and opinions that they do not subscribe to.
You claim pantheism. Should we lecture you about the evils of monotheism?

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22-11-2016, 10:12 AM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(22-11-2016 08:34 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I don't know if you know many Germans, but they're some of the nicest people on the planet, by and large. (I suspect it may have something to do with their national 3-week vacation policy, but that's another topic.) How, then, did a people that nice, that well-educated, and that civilized fall to the poison of Nazi fascism?

Poverty and hunger.

Quote:How did the cultural meme take over enough of their minds to make a nation of followers that set out to conquer the world and suppress, then harrass, then incarcerate entire peoples-- eventually murdering millions of them? Ovine stupidity. An unquestioning follower-culture ideology that can make even a people as great as the Germans turn into Nazis.

I am part German, they are not a great people more so than anyone else might be a great person.

I think it is very hypocritical to cry 'world conquest' if your nation (referring to the British and French Empires) already controlled Half Of The World, and were the ones that declared war on Germany in the first place.

Quote:How, then, can a religion as hypothetically peaceful as Islam, full of the wonderful people I know who are Muslims, produce large numbers of those who think it's still okay to murder apostates, atheists, and homosexuals? That it's okay to kill in the name of God? Ovine stupidity.

That is all he was saying. Yet everyone felt the need to gasp, "Butbutbut... he called them Nazis!!!" Rolleyes

No, he called any culture that advocates blindly following an ideology no matter how harmful it has grown, no matter how many members have turned it from a basic idea (in the case of Nazis, nationalist pride and the idea that their civilization came to its height because of the inherent superiority of their race, which was a common belief in the 1930s, not just among Germans) into something violent and horrifying, is worthy of the same degree of scorn, and for the same reason.

He didn't say any culture, he specifically said Islam.

Quote:That does not mean that he called the Muslims Nazis, any more than in my above example, my criticism of the often-violent, often misogynistic, hyper macho, and baseless regional pride among the culture of sports fanatics makes my statement an equivalence between Nazis and sports fans.

Was it a bad choice on his part, given the emotional reaction people were certain to have to using "Nazi" in any sentence with any other group? Yeah, it was. He should have known people would read it that way. But that doesn't mean it's what he was trying to say.

If people would read it that way, what stops them from thinking that way? It's also strange how such an 'intelligent' man who studies ethology could accidentally make such a bad choice.

He makes a lot of bad choices.
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22-11-2016, 10:23 AM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(22-11-2016 08:34 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I don't know if you know many Germans, but they're some of the nicest people on the planet, by and large. (I suspect it may have something to do with their national 3-week vacation policy, but that's another topic.
FYI

An overwhelmingly majority of german employees have 30 days (6 weeks) days paid leave plus 9-13 public holidays, depending on which state you are working in. If its a year with many public holidays (like 1st of May) on a weekend, its tuff for empoyees, if its a year with many holidays during the week, tuff for the employers.
2016 is a so-so year for employees (lemme count...), with 7/10 days for me, totaling 37 days for 2016.

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22-11-2016, 11:02 AM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(22-11-2016 10:12 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  I think it is very hypocritical to cry 'world conquest' if your nation (referring to the British and French Empires) already controlled Half Of The World, and were the ones that declared war on Germany in the first place.

Maybe GB and France declaration of war had something to do with Reich attack on Poland? You forget about this little detail?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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22-11-2016, 11:09 AM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(22-11-2016 11:02 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 10:12 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  I think it is very hypocritical to cry 'world conquest' if your nation (referring to the British and French Empires) already controlled Half Of The World, and were the ones that declared war on Germany in the first place.

Maybe GB and France declaration of war had something to do with Reich attack on Poland? You forget about this little detail?

Declaring war on Poland is a far cry from declaring war on the world. The Soviet Union also invaded Poland but Britain and France didn't declare war on them. I even made a thread about that.
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22-11-2016, 11:16 AM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(22-11-2016 11:09 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 11:02 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Maybe GB and France declaration of war had something to do with Reich attack on Poland? You forget about this little detail?

Declaring war on Poland is a far cry from declaring war on the world. The Soviet Union also invaded Poland but Britain and France didn't declare war on them. I even made a thread about that.

It may be far cry from this but it explain why GB and France declared war first.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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22-11-2016, 11:19 AM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(22-11-2016 11:16 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 11:09 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Declaring war on Poland is a far cry from declaring war on the world. The Soviet Union also invaded Poland but Britain and France didn't declare war on them. I even made a thread about that.

It may be far cry from this but it explain why GB and France declared war first.

They could have easily have not declared war, and it wasn't why they declared war, it was about their hypocrisy.
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22-11-2016, 11:22 AM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(22-11-2016 11:19 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 11:16 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  It may be far cry from this but it explain why GB and France declared war first.

They could have easily have not declared war, and it wasn't why they declared war, it was about their hypocrisy.
Hypocrisy? So they wrongly declared war on poor, poor Reich for doing what they done earlier (imperial expansion)?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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22-11-2016, 11:40 AM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(22-11-2016 11:22 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 11:19 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  They could have easily have not declared war, and it wasn't why they declared war, it was about their hypocrisy.
Hypocrisy? So they wrongly declared war on poor, poor Reich for doing what they done earlier (imperial expansion)?

Hypocrisy

the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.

so yeah basically.

Whether it was wrong is not the point, the point is that it is hypocritical.
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