Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
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22-11-2016, 11:43 AM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(22-11-2016 11:40 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 11:22 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Hypocrisy? So they wrongly declared war on poor, poor Reich for doing what they done earlier (imperial expansion)?

Hypocrisy

the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.

so yeah basically.

Whether it was wrong is not the point, the point is that it is hypocritical.
Well I would like them to be ever more hypocritical then. Maybe then they would do something more to help their ally?

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22-11-2016, 01:17 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(22-11-2016 11:19 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 11:16 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  It may be far cry from this but it explain why GB and France declared war first.

They could have easily have not declared war, and it wasn't why they declared war, it was about their hypocrisy.

No they couldnt. They had to declare war on Germany for two reasons.

1) They had a pact with Poland to do so in case of german agression towards Poland (duh)

2) They already didnt declare war on Germany when Czecheslovakia was first shattered by the Munich treaty in 1938 and later invaded by german troops. France and Britain by September had realized that further appeasement was futile, particularly since Adolf promised that after Czecheslovakia he will have no further demands.

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22-11-2016, 01:41 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(22-11-2016 01:17 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 11:19 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  They could have easily have not declared war, and it wasn't why they declared war, it was about their hypocrisy.

No they couldnt. They had to declare war on Germany for two reasons.

1) They had a pact with Poland to do so in case of german agression towards Poland (duh)

2) They already didnt declare war on Germany when Czecheslovakia was first shattered by the Munich treaty in 1938 and later invaded by german troops. France and Britain by September had realized that further appeasement was futile, particularly since Adolf promised that after Czecheslovakia he will have no further demands.

Hitler had a pact with Stalin, pacts don't mean they can't be broken. But I know why they declared war with Germany and from a political standpoint. You should never break your promises.
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22-11-2016, 01:57 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(22-11-2016 01:41 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 01:17 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  No they couldnt. They had to declare war on Germany for two reasons.

1) They had a pact with Poland to do so in case of german agression towards Poland (duh)

2) They already didnt declare war on Germany when Czecheslovakia was first shattered by the Munich treaty in 1938 and later invaded by german troops. France and Britain by September had realized that further appeasement was futile, particularly since Adolf promised that after Czecheslovakia he will have no further demands.

Hitler had a pact with Stalin, pacts don't mean they can't be broken. But I know why they declared war with Germany and from a political standpoint. You should never break your promises.

Are you comparing the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact with the franco-british guarantee for Poland?

Edit: Oops i just noticed the title of the thread. Sorry for hijacking.

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22-11-2016, 02:02 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(22-11-2016 01:57 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 01:41 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Hitler had a pact with Stalin, pacts don't mean they can't be broken. But I know why they declared war with Germany and from a political standpoint. You should never break your promises.

Are you comparing the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact with the franco-british guarantee for Poland?

That would be the one yes, but if Hitler promised not to make any more demands after Czechoslovakia, I guess it wasn't the first promise he broke.

Edit: we could continue this in the other thread if you wanted?
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22-11-2016, 06:06 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
My point was never what the German nation did, but why the people of the nation supported the rise of psychopaths like the Nazis, and followed them en masse, even though not everyone did. With the tacit approval of a majority, those who did speak out were brutally suppressed, and momentum built.

In a similar vein, there are many Muslim-dominated nations that prohibit true expression of ideas. And in which psychopathic ideologues have great power because of the belief structure of the common people, which tells them both that they shouldn't question and that there is a righteousness even to things which may instinctively strike them as evil.

Just this year:
Saudi Court Sentences Man to 10 Years, 2000 Lashes for Atheist Tweets

One of the Islamic world’s most outspoken feminists, Souad al-Shammary has been arrested for publicly challenging the belief that growing a beard is an Islamic injunction that was commanded by Prophet Mohammed.

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22-11-2016, 06:16 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(22-11-2016 06:06 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  My point was never what the German nation did, but why the people of the nation supported the rise of psychopaths like the Nazis, and followed them en masse, even though not everyone did. With the tacit approval of a majority, those who did speak out were brutally suppressed, and momentum built.

In a similar vein, there are many Muslim-dominated nations that prohibit true expression of ideas. And in which psychopathic ideologues have great power because of the belief structure of the common people, which tells them both that they shouldn't question and that there is a righteousness even to things which may instinctively strike them as evil.

Just this year:
Saudi Court Sentences Man to 10 Years, 2000 Lashes for Atheist Tweets

One of the Islamic world’s most outspoken feminists, Souad al-Shammary has been arrested for publicly challenging the belief that growing a beard is an Islamic injunction that was commanded by Prophet Mohammed.

Afghanistan used to be a progressive nation, used to be, until the cold war happened to it. Its not like Islam is oppressive, but the leaders who were ordained by the Western and Soviet powers who used whatever reason they could to consolidate their power and oppress all opposition.

Also Saudi Arabia is a monarchy, like a legitimate Monarchy where the King still holds power, so blame the king on that, not Islam.
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22-11-2016, 06:36 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(22-11-2016 06:16 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Afghanistan used to be a progressive nation, used to be, until the cold war happened to it. Its not like Islam is oppressive, but the leaders who were ordained by the Western and Soviet powers who used whatever reason they could to consolidate their power and oppress all opposition.

Also Saudi Arabia is a monarchy, like a legitimate Monarchy where the King still holds power, so blame the king on that, not Islam.

No. No no no. You don't get to just make up bullshit, here.

First, Afghanistan has had two attempts to modernize from the culture of Islamic restriction, and both of those attempts ended in bloodshed when the religious people of the country rose against the reformist rulers. The final attempt was a communist overthrow which was so heavily opposed by religion-driven violence (mainly objecting to their insistence that women be educated and men no longer be required to grow beards, among other things) that the Soviet Union stepped in to prop up the fledgling "socialist paradise" blooming on their border. The religious nutters, encouraged by the US as a proxy fighter against the USSR, became Al Quaeda and the Taliban.

Secondly, while Saudi Arabia is a monarchy, its rulers, the House of Saud, are as socially liberal as they can be, within the bounds of 1) maintaining their own power base and 2) making sure the religious fanatics of the country, led by the powerful clerics there, don't cut all their heads off. That is the host country to Islam's two holiest sites and biggest festival. Religion is most definitely what drives that nation to be the way it is.

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22-11-2016, 06:49 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(22-11-2016 06:36 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 06:16 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Afghanistan used to be a progressive nation, used to be, until the cold war happened to it. Its not like Islam is oppressive, but the leaders who were ordained by the Western and Soviet powers who used whatever reason they could to consolidate their power and oppress all opposition.

Also Saudi Arabia is a monarchy, like a legitimate Monarchy where the King still holds power, so blame the king on that, not Islam.

No. No no no. You don't get to just make up bullshit, here.

First, Afghanistan has had two attempts to modernize from the culture of Islamic restriction, and both of those attempts ended in bloodshed when the religious people of the country rose against the reformist rulers. The final attempt was a communist overthrow which was so heavily opposed by religion-driven violence (mainly objecting to their insistence that women be educated and men no longer be required to grow beards, among other things) that the Soviet Union stepped in to prop up the fledgling "socialist paradise" blooming on their border. The religious nutters, encouraged by the US as a proxy fighter against the USSR, became Al Quaeda and the Taliban.

I rest my case, these 'religious nutters' are always encouraged by an outside force so that they can use religion as a pretext for war/revolution. Because it looks better on the news than saying (the United States is overthrowing another country again in the name of democracy and capitalism)

Quote:Secondly, while Saudi Arabia is a monarchy, its rulers, the House of Saud, are as socially liberal as they can be, within the bounds of 1) maintaining their own power base and 2) making sure the religious fanatics of the country, led by the powerful clerics there, don't cut all their heads off. That is the host country to Islam's two holiest sites and biggest festival. Religion is most definitely what drives that nation to be the way it is.

Yes I can tell how socially liberal they are by their golden toilet bowls.

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22-11-2016, 08:20 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(22-11-2016 06:49 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  I rest my case, these 'religious nutters' are always encouraged by an outside force so that they can use religion as a pretext for war/revolution. Because it looks better on the news than saying (the United States is overthrowing another country again in the name of democracy and capitalism)

I think you are missing the point here, USA invading and doing what they want and fucking up everything does not exonerates the religious nuts, they are still doing their shit for their own ''religious nuttery'' purposes, regardless of USA waging war because of their interests and hiding their intentions (not really) disguised (at all) as ''war on terror''.

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