Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
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15-11-2016, 06:01 PM (This post was last modified: 15-11-2016 06:05 PM by Celestial_Wonder.)
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(15-11-2016 10:16 AM)jason197754 Wrote:  And how can something come from nothing??? How can we respond to that argument???

Maybe you should listen to them? However if they try and use the answer that god made nothing from something you should shoot the question right back at them. How can 'god' come from nothing?

Pretty much just show them this video if they try and use that logic
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15-11-2016, 07:05 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(15-11-2016 10:16 AM)jason197754 Wrote:  And how can something come from nothing??? How can we respond to that argument???

"Coming from" in the absence of time, (as Dr. Sean Carroll told WLC) is a meaningless phrase.

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17-11-2016, 05:25 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
If it's true that "something" can't come from "nothing" than first where did all the something we know to exist truly come from and why did it have to come from something, why can't it have always existed in a different form?

If you believe a God created everything "in the beginning..." well where was he existing at that point, before he created anything?

If he created the universe that means everything in our universe including time didn't exist until he created it so before "the beginning" there was no time, no elements of life like hydrogen or carbon, what was he made of?

How could there even be a "beginning" if time didn't exist yet, did he exist in a timeless formless void? Even if he did, he existed in the void so something was there, was he just a consciousness just floating around?

If he always existed we can say the universe always existed, it just used to be much more dense and hot, isn't that a more probable and reasonable explanation than magical spirits just deciding one day to create a universe?

I sometimes hear Christians say God is everything and everywhere and he is the universe, he is time, he is the stars and the space between stars, etc. Ok that makes no sense since he created the thing that he is?

If they want to be that fucking stupid ask them if they think God is literally everything in the universe and then ask how someone can make themselves? Did he give birth to himself? Are God and the universe twins? Who were their creators?

They can't have it both ways, he can't be our creator and literally everything in existence, you gotta pick one and then once you pick one sit back and realize this God came from "nothing" and then try to sort that out since that's their actual belief and we're reasonable enough not to pick one solid answer and just say " Yeah, I don't know where our universe came from and I don't claim to know but since you do know, how about you fucking prove it and stop wasting my time?"

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17-11-2016, 07:49 PM (This post was last modified: 17-11-2016 08:21 PM by Celestial_Wonder.)
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(17-11-2016 05:25 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  If it's true that "something" can't come from "nothing" than first where did all the something we know to exist truly come from and why did it have to come from something, why can't it have always existed in a different form?

If you believe a God created everything "in the beginning..." well where was he existing at that point, before he created anything?

If he created the universe that means everything in our universe including time didn't exist until he created it so before "the beginning" there was no time, no elements of life like hydrogen or carbon, what was he made of?

How could there even be a "beginning" if time didn't exist yet, did he exist in a timeless formless void? Even if he did, he existed in the void so something was there, was he just a consciousness just floating around?

If he always existed we can say the universe always existed, it just used to be much more dense and hot, isn't that a more probable and reasonable explanation than magical spirits just deciding one day to create a universe?

I sometimes hear Christians say God is everything and everywhere and he is the universe, he is time, he is the stars and the space between stars, etc. Ok that makes no sense since he created the thing that he is?

If they want to be that fucking stupid ask them if they think God is literally everything in the universe and then ask how someone can make themselves? Did he give birth to himself? Are God and the universe twins? Who were their creators?

If Christians want to define their god as everything, I don't think I'd want to debate them on that. Its a form of deistic naturalistic pantheism in which is only different from my own views because I'm a nontheist.

Secondly you are under the assumption that most Christians believe in the big bang.

A poll conducted in America claims that 42 percent of people are creationists, while on the other hand 53 percent of americans did believe in the theory of evolution. 19 percent of those being accepting an 'atheistic' evolution. and 31 percent with a 'theistic' evolution.

Now when compared to the big bang only 20% of Americans believe in the big bang.

This 20% is probably from that 'non religious' category that makes up a large portion of the demographics.

So that means perhaps we can assume that at least 25% of Americans or 1 out of every 4 Christians. Believes in Evolution, but not the big bang theory. We might then be able to conclude that these sorts of Christians may not believe the Universe even had a beginning, that the universe was always there there's no need for a big bang and that to them God may be something very similar to the way the Greek Stoics viewed the Logos.

Similarly these polls reflect largely on the religion of the theist, for Christians only 22% of Mormons agreed with evolution while Catholics were 58% while interestingly enough Hindus and Buddhists were a whopping 80% in agreement with the theory of evolution. and Muslims were more likely to believe in evolution with 45% of muslims agreeing than Evangelist Protestants who only 23% agreed with evolution.

But with 25% of Americans believing in Evolution and not the Big Bang Theory.

Perhaps these Christians are being more skeptical than Atheists in this example.





They may feel no need at all for there to be a creation of the universe, and they may not be convinced that Red shift is due to the Doppler Effect.

Quote:
They can't have it both ways, he can't be our creator and literally everything in existence, you gotta pick one and then once you pick one sit back and realize this God came from "nothing" and then try to sort that out since that's their actual belief and we're reasonable enough not to pick one solid answer and just say " Yeah, I don't know where our universe came from and I don't claim to know but since you do know, how about you fucking prove it and stop wasting my time?"

You may not be claiming to know where the universe came from, but if you believe in the big bang theory you are claiming that the universe did in fact at one point have a beginning. If my description of some Christians is accurate, then they aren't making any claims that the universe even had a beginning. They are then one higher on the totem pole than you are, and you must give enough evidence to convince them that the universe did indeed have a beginning. Further more you must also prove how this came about, and where that mass and energy came from, and what happened before the big bang as well.

If you claim that the mass and the energy came from nothing, you're going to have a very hard time indeed convincing anyone of your standing. If you say it existed as something else, do not be surprised if people don't believe in your standing because you can not adequately explain what this something else was. Singularity be damned.

Further more If Quantum Mechanics doesn't support the big bang.

Does this statement still hold true?

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I don't think you were here for that discussion me and another fellow had, but he exalted Science because science finds out what works and what doesn't work. if the square peg doesn't fit into the round hole, we can deduce that its not going to work no matter how many times we try.
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17-11-2016, 10:03 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(17-11-2016 07:49 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  If Christians want to define their god as everything, I don't think I'd want to debate them on that. Its a form of deistic naturalistic pantheism in which is only different from my own views because I'm a nontheist.

Secondly you are under the assumption that most Christians believe in the big bang.

A poll conducted in America claims that 42 percent of people are creationists, while on the other hand 53 percent of americans did believe in the theory of evolution. 19 percent of those being accepting an 'atheistic' evolution. and 31 percent with a 'theistic' evolution.

Now when compared to the big bang only 20% of Americans believe in the big bang.

This 20% is probably from that 'non religious' category that makes up a large portion of the demographics.

So that means perhaps we can assume that at least 25% of Americans or 1 out of every 4 Christians. Believes in Evolution, but not the big bang theory. We might then be able to conclude that these sorts of Christians may not believe the Universe even had a beginning, that the universe was always there there's no need for a big bang and that to them God may be something very similar to the way the Greek Stoics viewed the Logos.

At no point did I ever state that Christians believe in the big bang or even state that I myself believe in the big bang or that atheists in general believe in the big bang, I was only responding to the question of "Can something come from nothing?" in regards to our origins and the origins of the cosmos. The only thing I assumed about Christians is that they believe a God created everything.

I also don't care about polling about what other people believe, it doesn't affect me at all until I'm in their presence talking to them.

If the only thing I ever used to convince myself of a Christian's position on our origins was the Bible than it's right there in Genesis "In the beginning..." so then it goes on to describe the 6 days of creation with a 7th day for rest.

I'm sure there are Christians out there who don't believe this exactly and maybe incorporate the big bang but I can't argue against every single version of the "God created everything" theory all at once, the facts are still they are making a claim that a God created everything, there is no proof of that.

If the only "proof" they have is "Well something (meaning the universe and literally everything) can't come from nothing....so something had to make it or an intelligence formed it and it was this one particular God, the Jewish tribal God Yahweh." then yeah, I think you need to provide actual proof of that. I'm not the one saying we came from nothing or something else or anything actually, I don't know how the universe came to be, I'm just being honest. They're making an extraordinary claim, they need to provide extraordinary proof if they want to be believed outside of "Well something had to create it and here's how..."


(17-11-2016 07:49 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  You may not be claiming to know where the universe came from, but if you believe in the big bang theory you are claiming that the universe did in fact at one point have a beginning. If my description of some Christians is accurate, then they aren't making any claims that the universe even had a beginning. They are then one higher on the totem pole than you are, and you must give enough evidence to convince them that the universe did indeed have a beginning. Further more you must also prove how this came about, and where that mass and energy came from, and what happened before the big bang as well.

If you claim that the mass and the energy came from nothing, you're going to have a very hard time indeed convincing anyone of your standing. If you say it existed as something else, do not be surprised if people don't believe in your standing because you can not adequately explain what this something else was. Singularity be damned.


I don't think you were here for that discussion me and another fellow had, but he exalted Science because science finds out what works and what doesn't work. if the square peg doesn't fit into the round hole, we can deduce that its not going to work no matter how many times we try.

I don't need to convince anyone the universe had a beginning, I'm not claiming that and they are the one's making a claim. Maybe our universe didn't have a beginning, maybe it did, I don't know and don't claim to know.

Not once did I ever state that I believe the big bang theory or that it's accurate and if it's true I can't just "believe" it, I'd have to accept it since it's a fact but I don't know if it is or not.

I'm not a physicist or a believer in any spirits or magic, I'm a true blue skeptic. Also they are claiming that the universe had a beginning, it's literally in their holy book, right at the beginning of the book it describes the beginning of our universe. If they don't believe it that's fine but they're not higher on a totem pole or whatever, they're the one's who have to prove our universe had a beginning like their holy book states and then prove how a being who existed outside of our universe created it.

The only thing I stated was that it's more reasonable to believe our universe always existed in some other state and then exploded, cooled down, etc. then to believe a magical wizard from another dimension created it.

Why would any reasonable person just assume a magical being created everything? Especially if the only "proof" is that something has to come from something else, ok fine, we came from "something" but why is that "something" this God right here? Maybe it was a different God altogether and also we don't know for sure what is the nature of "nothing", they still have to define it before we can even be sure something can't come from it.

Do I believe the big bang theory more than the "God created everything" theory, yeah but that's only because we have proof the universe is expanding and cooling down, only logical to take that one step further and assume our universe was once hot, dense and compact, where did all the hot dense stuff come from? I don't know and I don't claim to know.

Really you can fill in the blank with anything, "The care bears created the universe because it has to come from somewhere and the care bears are something...but where did the care bears come from? They always existed! They are not bound by time! They love us all very much!" See how silly that sounds?

That's why I don't go around saying "I know where our universe came from! I can't prove it but I know it in my heart!" I just say " I don't know" because I don't and neither do any theists, they're just sincerely believing things and they can't prove it which is why they need faith.

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17-11-2016, 10:16 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(17-11-2016 07:49 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  I sometimes hear Christians say God is everything and everywhere and he is the universe, he is time, he is the stars and the space between stars, etc. Ok that makes no sense since he created the thing that he is?

......

If Christians want to define their god as everything, I don't think I'd want to debate them on that. Its a form of deistic naturalistic pantheism in which is only different from my own views because I'm a nontheist.

Their god isn't "everything". Their god "exists". Their god doesn't BOTH *exist* and "not exist*. Their god has *certain* properties. Reality therefore was always larger than their god. Their god was always embedded in a larger reality which it could not have created, as it was always smaller than a larger Reality in which it found itself. Reality remains unexplained.

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17-11-2016, 11:21 PM (This post was last modified: 17-11-2016 11:45 PM by Celestial_Wonder.)
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(17-11-2016 10:03 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  I don't need to convince anyone the universe had a beginning, I'm not claiming that and they are the one's making a claim. Maybe our universe didn't have a beginning, maybe it did, I don't know and don't claim to know.

Not once did I ever state that I believe the big bang theory or that it's accurate and if it's true I can't just "believe" it, I'd have to accept it since it's a fact but I don't know if it is or not.

I'm not a physicist or a believer in any spirits or magic, I'm a true blue skeptic. Also they are claiming that the universe had a beginning, it's literally in their holy book, right at the beginning of the book it describes the beginning of our universe. If they don't believe it that's fine but they're not higher on a totem pole or whatever, they're the one's who have to prove our universe had a beginning like their holy book states and then prove how a being who existed outside of our universe created it.

There are over several billion religions in the world Sitasky, no one Christian is the same, no one atheist is the same. Sorry for assuming you harbored a belief in the big bang, but you also shouldn't assume that all Christians believe everything in their bible, quite the opposite in fact. See above for the several billion religions comment. Everyone is going to have their own opinion and while it may seem illogical for a religion to have people who don't believe everything in the religion that's just how people are.

Having said that, if you're not trying to convince them that the universe had a beginning what are you trying to convince them of? What should you care what they believe?

Quote:The only thing I stated was that it's more reasonable to believe our universe always existed in some other state and then exploded, cooled down, etc. then to believe a magical wizard from another dimension created it.

Why would any reasonable person just assume a magical being created everything? Especially if the only "proof" is that something has to come from something else, ok fine, we came from "something" but why is that "something" this God right here? Maybe it was a different God altogether and also we don't know for sure what is the nature of "nothing", they still have to define it before we can even be sure something can't come from it.

They believe what they do because they are reasonable. There are over several billion ways to reason in this world. Perhaps trillions, quadrillions, perhaps even an infinite amount depending on how you define world or reason. But for the human variety that we are talking about, there is no one that is not reasonable. Just others who reason a little differently than we do.

That's why they call it 'reasoning with someone' because you are attempting to reconcile your own desires/beliefs with them. And in order to do so you must make an effort to understand things from their point of view.

When I was a Catholic, one of the biggest obstacles I faced was fear. And if we boil it down, what I feared truly, was the unknown. That's why I've said in the past you should never expect to get anywhere with anyone if you don't have anything to offer them in return. This applies especially to the realm of spirituality. Their spiritual beliefs are tied in so significantly with reality, that were they to take god away, it would lead to a tremendous gap in their knowledge. The biggest gap, 'what happens to me after I am dead?' i dare say there has never been a human in existence capable of thought who has not pondered that thought.

That is why I believe many people reject physical evidence when it conflicts with their spiritualistic beliefs, because in the end I believe it boils down to the fear of the unknown.

This may be why some believe in this magical being from a different dimension, because it is all they have, all they know. For them the specifics may vary but it is probably of no particular consequence which god or goddess they or others believe.

Quote:Do I believe the big bang theory more than the "God created everything" theory, yeah but that's only because we have proof the universe is expanding and cooling down, only logical to take that one step further and assume our universe was once hot, dense and compact, where did all the hot dense stuff come from? I don't know and I don't claim to know.

The theists have their proof as well to support their god's existence. They say it all the time. God is everywhere. That is what they say. So its not like they don't have proof, their proof is just different than what you would consider proof, but likely their definition of what a god is, is likely also different than yours.

You have defined your idea of god as some magical being, where as theists are more likely to define their idea of god as the very substance of the universe, or to explain why the laws of nature work as they do. So do not be surprised when you confront a theist and the reject you outright, because you may not be on the same wavelength with how you define things.

The importance of definition in which I've learned very well on this forum, I was using definitions of words that others weren't used to using.

Quote:Really you can fill in the blank with anything, "The care bears created the universe because it has to come from somewhere and the care bears are something...but where did the care bears come from? They always existed! They are not bound by time! They love us all very much!" See how silly that sounds?

That's why I don't go around saying "I know where our universe came from! I can't prove it but I know it in my heart!" I just say " I don't know" because I don't and neither do any theists, they're just sincerely believing things and they can't prove it which is why they need faith.

Sika if I asked you to prove the existence of the universe to prove this vast cosmic expanse how would you go about doing it? Am I safe to assume you would use the knowledge collected over the centuries by various members of our tribe? What if I asked you to prove the universe without their help? Convince me that the earth orbits the sun or that our solar system lays in one of the spiral arms of the galaxy, or that we are even in a galaxy. And you can't use any of the knowledge anyone else has gleamed.

We all operate on faith.

I can't prove it but I know in my heart, that science/scientists would never lie to me.

I can't prove it but I know in my heart, that god exists.

We're all just sincerely believing things, that most of us for the most part, can never come to know.

So I don't think you should be to hard on them for filling the blank with care bears.

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18-11-2016, 01:35 AM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
Dear Celestial_Wonder.

Please stop equivocating.

Thanks. Thumbsup
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18-11-2016, 02:08 AM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(18-11-2016 01:35 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Dear Celestial_Wonder.

Please stop equivocating.

Thanks. Thumbsup

No

No this time I do not think I was equivocating, I can not speak for my past posts as I've forgotten their contents by and large now.

But this one I put forward that Theists don't believe without proof but rather that their proof is different from our own. Therefore I am not using the word faith to mean 'belief without proof' because I've already put forward that I don't believe they believe without proof.

Now what we define as proof and what is not proof that varies.

So in this case as was my intent I intended to use the belief with strong conviction as theists would have every right to if they believed their god was the manifestation of the entire universe. There's a lot of evidence for the universe existing.

Is that equivocating?
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18-11-2016, 02:17 AM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(18-11-2016 02:08 AM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  No

No this time I do not think I was equivocating, I can not speak for my past posts as I've forgotten their contents by and large now.

But this one I put forward that Theists don't believe without proof but rather that their proof is different from our own. Therefore I am not using the word faith to mean 'belief without proof' because I've already put forward that I don't believe they believe without proof.

Now what we define as proof and what is not proof that varies.

So in this case as was my intent I intended to use the belief with strong conviction as theists would have every right to if they believed their god was the manifestation of the entire universe. There's a lot of evidence for the universe existing.

Is that equivocating?


Equivocation
-The use of ambiguous language to conceal the truth or to avoid committing oneself; prevarication.


Comparing 'faith' with 'proof' is equivocation. Whenever someone tires to equate 'faith in their religion' with 'having proof for their religion', that is equivocating. Definitions matter, having a clear grasp of the words we use to communicate matters. If a believer has never come face-to-face with the reality of just how vacuous their supposed 'proof' is, continuing to coddle their misconceptions is not productive.

There is a reason why religion requires faith, and science rejects it; and that distinction is critically important.

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