Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
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18-11-2016, 04:09 PM (This post was last modified: 18-11-2016 04:16 PM by Celestial_Wonder.)
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(18-11-2016 03:51 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(18-11-2016 02:48 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  You accuse me of being dishonest yet you claim that I claimed faith and empirical evidence were the same?

Can you not read the quoted post?

(18-11-2016 01:38 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  I know how they're different, but you just admitted it yourself, they're belief structures, thus they may be different, but they are equivalent.

Should I quote it some more?

Yes I can read it, I said they were equivalent, I NEVER said they were the same.

(18-11-2016 03:55 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(18-11-2016 03:49 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Also fatbalhobbit said that I was equating faith the empirical evidence, the only one in your example that would have empirical evidence would be the scientist, while the person in #1 (which I should have reworded better in hindsight) does have the ability to independently test and verify the scientists findings. I made the example to help show how we accept things without proof.

Which is a lie. Science is based on empirical evidence. Proof is a poor choice of words. Science does not accept things without evidence. Faith on the other hand...

(18-11-2016 03:49 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  that is not saying that faith is the same as empirical evidence.

You said that faith and science were equivalent belief systems.

I said that the way people believe in science is similar to the way people believe in religion.
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18-11-2016, 04:18 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(18-11-2016 04:09 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  I said that the way people believe in science is similar to the way people believe in religion.

I stand by my comments.

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18-11-2016, 04:22 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(18-11-2016 04:18 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(18-11-2016 04:09 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  I said that the way people believe in science is similar to the way people believe in religion.

I stand by my comments.

You do that. Drinking Beverage
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18-11-2016, 04:29 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(18-11-2016 04:09 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  ...I said they were equivalent, I NEVER said they were the same.

??? If "equivalent" doesn't mean exactly the same thing as "the same", please explain the difference.

Quote:I said that the way people believe in science is similar to the way people believe in religion.

... and you're wrong, plain and simple. They're not similar at all.
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18-11-2016, 04:52 PM (This post was last modified: 18-11-2016 05:00 PM by Celestial_Wonder.)
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(18-11-2016 04:29 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(18-11-2016 04:09 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  ...I said they were equivalent, I NEVER said they were the same.

??? If "equivalent" doesn't mean exactly the same thing as "the same", please explain the difference.

Quote:I said that the way people believe in science is similar to the way people believe in religion.

... and you're wrong, plain and simple. They're not similar at all.

Equivalent vs Same

Equivalent as in, a logical equivalence in this matter,

Equivalence as in the definition of B.

a : the state or property of being equivalent
b : the relation holding between two statements/propositions if they are either both true or both false so that to affirm one and to deny the other would result in a contradiction

Mind you once more that this is regarding the way people believe in science compared to the way people believe in religion. Which is people believe without proof. So to say that the religious believe without proof but you or I do not, is a contradiction because we do.

And so I am wrong because I am wrong? Usually when people assert such claims they try and furnish it with evidence to support it.
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18-11-2016, 05:01 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(18-11-2016 04:52 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(18-11-2016 04:29 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  ??? If "equivalent" doesn't mean exactly the same thing as "the same", please explain the difference.


... and you're wrong, plain and simple. They're not similar at all.

Equivalent vs Same

Equivalent as in, a logical equivalence in this matter,

Equivalence as in the definition of B.

a : the state or property of being equivalent
b : the relation holding between two statements if they are either both true or both false so that to affirm one and to deny the other would result in a contradiction

And so I am wrong because I am wrong? Usually when people assert such claims they try and furnish it with evidence to support it.

It has been explained to you repeatedly by various people why you're wrong (about religious faith and scientific "faith" being similar, equivalent, or whatever equivocation you're using today). They are very different. One is based on evidence and one isn't, and as EvolutionKills has already noted (and defended at length), that makes a fucking difference -- a huge difference.
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18-11-2016, 05:07 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(18-11-2016 05:01 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(18-11-2016 04:52 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  Equivalent vs Same

Equivalent as in, a logical equivalence in this matter,

Equivalence as in the definition of B.

a : the state or property of being equivalent
b : the relation holding between two statements if they are either both true or both false so that to affirm one and to deny the other would result in a contradiction

And so I am wrong because I am wrong? Usually when people assert such claims they try and furnish it with evidence to support it.

It has been explained to you repeatedly by various people why you're wrong (about religious faith and scientific "faith" being similar, equivalent, or whatever equivocation you're using today). They are very different. One is based on evidence and one isn't, and as EvolutionKills has already noted (and defended at length), that makes a fucking difference -- a huge difference.

Science is based on evidence yes, but your belief in science is not. Do not mistake the two. Yours beliefs compared to the way a theist believes, they are not so different as they fundamentally rely on the same thing, words and consensus.

Do you or do you not accept things without proof?
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18-11-2016, 05:24 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(18-11-2016 05:07 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(18-11-2016 05:01 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  It has been explained to you repeatedly by various people why you're wrong (about religious faith and scientific "faith" being similar, equivalent, or whatever equivocation you're using today). They are very different. One is based on evidence and one isn't, and as EvolutionKills has already noted (and defended at length), that makes a fucking difference -- a huge difference.

Science is based on evidence yes, but your belief in science is not. Do not mistake the two. Yours beliefs compared to the way a theist believes, they are not so different as they fundamentally rely on the same thing, words and consensus.

Do you or do you not accept things without proof?

Go back and read the thread. I'm not going to repeat arguments that have already been made perfectly well by others. I'm tired of you.
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18-11-2016, 05:36 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(18-11-2016 05:24 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Go back and read the thread. I'm not going to repeat arguments that have already been made perfectly well by others. I'm tired of you.

And this is what we call deflection, instead of answering the question, you are telling me to go back and read the thread. I dare say I should know better the postulations others have put forth in this thread regarding this matter. For I've been here through the thick of it.
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18-11-2016, 05:38 PM
RE: Why is there something rather than nothing argument????
(18-11-2016 05:07 PM)Celestial_Wonder Wrote:  
(18-11-2016 05:01 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  It has been explained to you repeatedly by various people why you're wrong (about religious faith and scientific "faith" being similar, equivalent, or whatever equivocation you're using today). They are very different. One is based on evidence and one isn't, and as EvolutionKills has already noted (and defended at length), that makes a fucking difference -- a huge difference.

Science is based on evidence yes, but your belief in science is not. Do not mistake the two. Yours beliefs compared to the way a theist believes, they are not so different as they fundamentally rely on the same thing, words and consensus.

Do you or do you not accept things without proof?

There is a difference between "believing" in science and accepting the facts that science has provided humanity.

We can all accept that science has explained many facets of reality to us that we either didn't know or didn't fully understand. Take the theory of gravity, you don't just "believe" it, you accept it as a fact of life. Gravity always existed, we just didn't have a full understanding of it but the laws of gravity have been proven to be accurate over and over again so it's just a fact now, it's not a "belief".

If we were to present the law of universal gravity to a theist and state that it explains why the moon revolves around the Earth and they say "Nope! The moon revolves around the Earth because God put it there to control the tides and he controls it's movements!" They are using a faith "belief" to assert their claim, there is nothing factual about it but yes my claim that it's gravity makes a whole lot more sense and has been scientifically proven over and over.

Whenever a theist has ever asked me why I "believe" in science I always tell them I trust in the scientific method of hypothesis, study, testing, observation, modification of hypothesis, theory and peer review. Since this system is built upon a very solid and reality based foundation it's much easier to trust and "believe" than a theistic view that a magic spirit being is having a war with another spirit being over our souls that may or may not be subject to eternal torture or whatever the fuck they believe, literally anyone can create a religion based on any imaginary being and call it facts but it's not actually a fact, it's just a belief based on literally nothing but someone's thoughts and feelings, that's not the same as a scientific evidence based conclusion based on years of study and experimentation.

I hope you can see now how ridiculous it sounds to equate a scientific belief system to a religious belief especially since the truth is true no matter who believes it but religion only matters because some people got together and believed it.

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