Why is this a Contradiction?
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26-12-2011, 04:50 PM
Why is this a Contradiction?
I've been bothered by reading and/or hearing this several times now. In fact, Seth has it in his list of The Thinking Atheist Bible Contradictions and last night I heard it again while watching his Xmas and Beyond.

From that link comes this, Blow the Christians Out of the Water Bible Contradiction:

Who Did the Angel Speak to Regarding the Birth of Jesus? (Or To Whom?)

Matthew 1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
The angel appeared to Joseph.

Luke 1:28 In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
The angel spoke to Mary.

It seems like, in the video anyway, I'm supposed to be blown away by this zinger. Isn't the simple answer, an angel appeared to both at 2 different times?

Also, this one gets used a lot too, and it bugs me:
There are two zingers, but I'll combine them into one.

Was Jesus Born in a House or a Manger?

Matthew 2:11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh.
In a house.

Luke 2:7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
In a manger. There was no room in the inn.

Shepherds or Wisemen?


Matthew 2:1-2 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him."
Magi (astronomers or astrologers).

Luke 2:15 And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.
Shepherds.

Isn't the simple answer these are talking about two separate events? Matthew describes the time the Magi dropped by the house where the Baby Jesus Family lived after he was born, and Luke talks about when the Shepherds show up at the manger on the night he was born. Are we expected to think that the Baby Jesus Family hung out in the manger on a permanent basis until he was 30?

Pastor Erxomai could probably deal with all of the contradictions (albeit in a flimsy and faith-filled way), but that would entail Bible Study and Godless Erxomai gets panic attacks at the thought of that, so I'll just point to these two and ask the group, why are these considered contradictions?

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26-12-2011, 04:53 PM
RE: Why is this a Contradiction?
(26-12-2011 04:50 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  I've been bothered by reading and/or hearing this several times now. In fact, Seth has it in his list of The Thinking Atheist Bible Contradictions and last night I heard it again while watching his Xmas and Beyond.
...
Pastor Erxomai could probably deal with all of the contradictions (albeit in a flimsy and faith-filled way), but that would entail Bible Study and Godless Erxomai gets panic attacks at the thought of that, so I'll just point to these two and ask the group, why are these considered contradictions?
I don't see these as contradictions. I do, however, see these as more evidence that the Gospels were written long after the facts(?), by people who weren't there, and written/edited/selected for doctrinal reasons.

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26-12-2011, 04:55 PM
RE: Why is this a Contradiction?
(26-12-2011 04:53 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't see these as contradictions. I do, however, see these as more evidence that the Gospels were written long after the facts(?), by people who weren't there, and written/edited/selected for doctrinal reasons.

Oh, yes. I'm much more comfortable with that line of thought and would say I agree with you.

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26-12-2011, 07:27 PM
RE: Why is this a Contradiction?
I have another one. How many women were the first to receive the good news after Jesus was resurrected?

a. One (Mary Magdalene)
b. Two (Mary Magdalene and the other Mary)
c. Three (Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Salome)
d. Any number of women, but no lower than 5 (Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them)
e. All of the above

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

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26-12-2011, 07:34 PM
RE: Why is this a Contradiction?
(26-12-2011 07:27 PM)Malleus Wrote:  I have another one. How many women were the first to receive the good news after Jesus was resurrected?

a. One (Mary Magdalene)
b. Two (Mary Magdalene and the other Mary)
c. Three (Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Salome)
d. Any number of women, but no lower than 5 (Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them)
e. All of the above

Do you mean "another one" that is supposed to be a contradiction but really is easily answered? Certainly E can be the answer. There are 4 different accounts (well, 2 really, but in 4 books) and it doesn't bother me at all that the list of women gets mixed around. I could say Malleus is reading my reply. But that doesn't mean that Chas or anyone else might have read it too.

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26-12-2011, 10:05 PM
RE: Why is this a Contradiction?
(26-12-2011 07:27 PM)Malleus Wrote:  I have another one. How many women were the first to receive the good news after Jesus was resurrected?

a. One (Mary Magdalene)
b. Two (Mary Magdalene and the other Mary)
c. Three (Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Salome)
d. Any number of women, but no lower than 5 (Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them)
e. All of the above

As many as God wanted, brother, as many as necessary. Wink

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26-12-2011, 10:22 PM
 
RE: Why is this a Contradiction?
There's this conclusion I've come to about Bible contradictions. Christians don't seem to have a problem with them. Atheists do. But atheists have no business reading the Bible, given they don't even believe God exists. If God doesn't exists, who cares about Bible contradictions? So the Christians, me included, don't care, and the atheists have no business caring.

I think that makes Bible contradictions a non-issue.
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26-12-2011, 10:32 PM
RE: Why is this a Contradiction?
(26-12-2011 10:22 PM)Egor Wrote:  There's this conclusion I've come to about Bible contradictions. Christians don't seem to have a problem with them. Atheists do. But atheists have no business reading the Bible, given they don't even believe God exists. If God doesn't exists, who cares about Bible contradictions? So the Christians, me included, don't care, and the atheists have no business caring.

I think that makes Bible contradictions a non-issue.

You have no business spreading lies but hey if it makes you feel better. Unlike yourself, I actually care that misinformation is cut off at the pass. I care that your mind is in prison and wish it freed. Unfortunately I can't help you until you help yourself. One day you may escape that mental prison religion has put you in.

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26-12-2011, 10:40 PM
RE: Why is this a Contradiction?
Oh Egor if only that were the case.
Some Christians like to pretend that that Christianity doesn't force it's way into other peoples happy lives in exceedingly negative ways, using it's doctrine as the excuse for the intrusive behavior. But in reality it happens all the time, at home, in school, at work, in politics. And when these people use the bible as their guidebook for life, and how to lie and treat others, saying it's a must because it's the word of god.... well people tend to get interested in finding out just what this word of god is, and why it seems to want to take away all of the happy.

The problem then arises that those who read this bible are faced with two options.
1. Ignore the rational fallacies, logical inconsistencies, moral quandaries, and just general bad habits abound, and pretend they don't exist in order to find happiness and fulfillment in life that they may not have otherwise found, or....
2. Attempt to address all of the above. Which tends to lead people to places like this.

Not to mention a lot of the people who call themselves atheist did not start out that way at all. They started out believing. So they had already read the bible one or more times, with holy glasses on. Only to have this belief turned upside down when someone gave them a case of the cooties, AKA rationality. Most of these people found that rationality and faith are not on the same wavelength. Unfortunately they don't mesh well. SO most of these people abandoned their entire lives because they just couldn't do it anymore.

The rest of us, felt some reason to read the bible at some point, like me for instance, I had questions about life that have yet to be answered. I gave the thing a chance to answer them for me. But to no avail. It wasn't for lack of trying I promise. I would have loved it if the book had answered questions for me. They drive me insane. Daily.

So don't say atheists have no reason to read the bible. That's stupid. It affects us. In one way or another. That would be like saying Christians have no reason to read anything about medicine, or science. Or use laptops, or anything other than a bible actually.

If Christians would leave everyone the fuck alone maybe.... But even then atheists have a tendency to read anything you put in front of them.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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26-12-2011, 11:20 PM
RE: Why is this a Contradiction?
I agree, Erxomai, that these don't appear to be direct contradictions but could both be true. I'm just amazed at how small the overlap is between the stories. Or rather, I'm not amazed, since even Jesus probably didn't remember his birth, so who told the tale to the gospel writers? You could believe it is "God-inspired", but I've never heard a Christian give me a rational explanation of what this literally means. I wrote a blog post on this a long time ago, pretty much making fun of the idea. I'm not linking to it because no one gives a shit Tongue

I went to church with my parents on Christmas, and heard the same old bullshit sermons on these stories. Remember how "gold, frankincense, and myrrh" were supposed to be some sort of symbol for Jesus' life? Gold, because he was a king (though he actually never spent any time as a king); frankincense, because he was a priest (although he never actually did any of the rites that would be associated with such a product); and myrrh because he would later die (which I think is actually a good prediction of roughly 100% of the people on Earth, but even in this case - since Jesus is told to have risen before being embalmed - this was a crappy gift that he wasn't going to use). But I kept my mouth shut, like a good son.

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