Why materialism has worn out...
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13-04-2013, 07:52 AM (This post was last modified: 14-04-2013 08:41 AM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: Why materialism has worn out...
(13-04-2013 05:43 AM)Vosur Wrote:  The speaker began his presentation by walking the audience through the origin and development of science (not modern science, mind you). He claims that science cannot and did not develop outside of Christian Europe, because the prevailing religions and philosophies in other places didn't allow any examination of nature due to the pantheistic views of their respective cultures. According to him, even the Greeks, Hindus and Chinese (I'm interested in your response to this, Junyuan).

Thank you for your relaying of the presentation. It must be laborious, I can imagine.

I don't agree with his claims but I do have theory why science owes its success a great deal to Christianity.

To defend the Bible which wasn't even a proper book until the Council of Carthage in 397 A.D., and to explain so many fuzzy or even contradictory places in the book, one much be very strong at using logic to twist people's minds. After Mercantilism, the Renaissance and the Protestant Reformation, twisted minds unbound, money poured in, and there was this traditional preference for logic among the elites, BOOM, and you had science.

More evidence: The Arabs were once very good at mathematics. The numbers we use in maths today are still called Arabic Numbers. Guess which God did they worship and to what extent they have to defend one book? Sounds familiar?

Why Greeks, Hindus and Chinese people didn't develop science so soon? Because of lack of mathematics and logical reasoning upon natural phenomenons. Why did they lack these things? Because they didn't have this only God and Bible they must defend. BTW, Chinese emperors didn't like his fellow subjects being smart guys who knew much about logic, so they used the bureaucratic and examination system to make them less practical and more ideological, easier to manipulate. The elites under this kind of system were very unlikely to appreciate logic and become scientists.

Science is the result of logic, funding and mind unbound. Indeed it owes a great deal to Christianity, not to the more of it, but to the less of it.

And praise the Holly Bible ! Without it, or had it been much less contradictory, illogical and confusing, how could people exercise their minds before they got enough money to do those expensive experiments?

(13-04-2013 05:43 AM)Vosur Wrote:  He continued by citing different religious scientists (Kepler, Planck, Galileo, Einstein [?!], etc.), who said that the existence of god was obvious to them when they observed nature with awe and that they practiced science as a means to explore the great works of their creator.

God was also obvious to those Inquisition guys who burned Bruno and punished Galileo, if not more obvious.

And I have this joke about the famous historical figures' sayings superstition. I cite this joke in order to point out that it is not those famous people that have made their sayings reasonable, and that it is their ways of reasoning that have made themselves quite different from others.

90% of the quotes on the internet cited from celebrities are fake.
- Abraham Lincoln

It's up to you to believe it or not. Anyway, I do not believe it.
- Leonardo da Vinci

Some people just love Twitter and blog rumors.
- Isaac Newton

Do not simply believe those widespread quotes of famous people. Many seemingly reasonable sayings are actually just hollow.
- Bertrand Russell

Basically anything that sounds reasonable will be attributed to me by folks I totally don't know.
- Plato

What Plato said is right.
- Socrates

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13-04-2013, 08:10 AM
RE: Why materialism has worn out...
(13-04-2013 06:56 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Dagnammit Vos, your English is awesome.

No one would ever guess that you are from an inferior race.
At first I was like

[Image: BWLhcYA.jpg]

But then I was like

[Image: aVl69BW.jpg]

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13-04-2013, 08:23 AM
RE: Why materialism has worn out...
(13-04-2013 08:10 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(13-04-2013 06:56 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Dagnammit Vos, your English is awesome.

No one would ever guess that you are from an inferior race.
At first I was like

[Image: BWLhcYA.jpg]

But then I was like

[Image: aVl69BW.jpg]

Well played, mein Herr.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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13-04-2013, 08:29 AM
RE: Why materialism has worn out...
(13-04-2013 07:03 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  So what did you personally get out of this?
I suppose you could say that it gave me yet another opportunity to demonstrate to my father that I'm willing to change my mind about the existence of supernatural deities (something that he is not since he considers himself to be a gnostic Christian). Giving the opposition (for the lack of a better term) an opportunity to defend their beliefs and a chance to answer questions pertaining the validity of said beliefs is important if you want to remain open-minded.

(13-04-2013 07:03 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  How did going to this presentation affect you?
It didn't affect me in any particular way, to be honest.

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13-04-2013, 09:00 AM
RE: Why materialism has worn out...
Saying science owes its success to Christianity is like saying deer owe their success to wolves. Dodgy

I see it as more a natural tendency of the human animal to ask questions and not be satisfied with easy answers. As to the mathematics, there is a legacy of "not questioning the eternal" that was first breached with Newton and Leibniz with the calculus, and a beachhead established with Cantor. In such a case, it is expressly not due to Christianity, rather, in spite of.

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13-04-2013, 09:35 AM
RE: Why materialism has worn out...
(13-04-2013 08:29 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(13-04-2013 07:03 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  So what did you personally get out of this?
Giving the opposition (for the lack of a better term) an opportunity to defend their beliefs and a chance to answer questions pertaining the validity of said beliefs is important if you want to remain open-minded.

I applaud you for your outlook.

I wonder what your father came away with, if maybe he thinks the talk put a chink in your armor?

At least you have these father-son opportunities, treasure them. My parents and I can't even broach the subject without bloodshed.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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13-04-2013, 10:02 AM
RE: Why materialism has worn out...
Vosur, back to the opening question, when was materialism BRAND NEW or at its PRIME, according to the speaker's opinion? At the birth of Marxism or Darwinism?

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13-04-2013, 10:16 AM
RE: Why materialism has worn out...
(13-04-2013 10:02 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  Vosur, back to the opening question, when was materialism BRAND NEW or at its PRIME, according to the speaker's opinion? At the birth of Marxism or Darwinism?
About 150-300 years ago. Around the time when the Industrial Revolution started in the 18th century.

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13-04-2013, 10:27 AM
RE: Why materialism has worn out...
(13-04-2013 10:16 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(13-04-2013 10:02 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  Vosur, back to the opening question, when was materialism BRAND NEW or at its PRIME, according to the speaker's opinion? At the birth of Marxism or Darwinism?
About 150-300 years ago. Around the time when the Industrial Revolution started in the 18th century.

So if Medieval Theocracy had come back, he would enjoy his engineering job better under the surveillance of the Inquisition. Liberated from materialism at last. Consider

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13-04-2013, 10:49 AM (This post was last modified: 13-04-2013 09:15 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why materialism has worn out...
(13-04-2013 05:43 AM)Vosur Wrote:  After this he kind of lost the golden thread. He went on about how Quantum Mechanics disprove Einsteins theory of relativity because it has been shown that protons can exchange information between each other at 1000 times the speed of light. Once again, I've never heard of this before, but I'll research it later. That side, he used this as evidence for a transcendent dimension and said that QM provide a mechanism by which god can intervene in our world without violating any natural laws.


I'll respond more to this later. However, Einstein was well aware of (what he called) "spooky action at a distance", (quantum entanglement), and it in no way refutes Relativity. Relativity is confirmed millions/billions of times per day by every GPS device in use. They are adjusted for it.
If they weren't they would be wrong, planes would crash, etc etc etc.

The transmission of information between two particles with opposite spin faster than light, (actually "instantly") is one of the things they have always known about, and is not understood, and it proves there is something missing from the Standard Model, or perhaps other dimensions. In fact, if a god "intervenes" then by Pauli Exclusion, the ENTIRE univese changes. It's more than "local". In fact it violates EVERY "natural" law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

People actively question whether quantum entanglement really actually violates Special Relativity, or General Relativity.
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=299687
http://www.stealthskater.com/Documents/Quantum_01.pdf
Whatever the answer, it's FAR from settled, and whatever it is, it leads to no gods.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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