Why materialism has worn out...
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13-04-2013, 11:15 AM
RE: Why materialism has worn out...
(13-04-2013 09:00 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Saying science owes its success to Christianity is like saying deer owe their success to wolves. Dodgy

You give far to much credit for christianity as Deer do owe the wolves (and other predators) their continued success. Without the wolf to pick out the weak and to keep the deer from overpopulating the species would not be as successful as they indeed are.

As to the fact that European science ended up surpassing the rest of the worlds it is actually due to a Chinese import. The Black Death. Before the majority of Europe was stricken dead or lame by the Bubonic Plague (roughly 50% dead and another 25% crippled) inefficient systems were not a problem. If anything the population in Europe pre-plague was such that there were more hands to do the job than jobs that needed hands.

However after 3/4's of the former population were removed from the equation the survivors had a massive shortfall in healthy able bodies and needed to get the most "bang for their buck" as it were. This is the point on those graphs that show the accumulated knowledge of mankind ceasing it's stagnation and beginning again to rise. The coincidence that Europe had an anti-intellectual death cult as it's main fairy tale had less to do with the subsequent rise of Europe and it's descendants than a simple examination of Work that needs to be done vs Labor pool available to do such work. Before the black death automation had always been a toy to amuse (see the greek holy water dispenser here) after the labor force was reduced to almost nothing it became vital.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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13-04-2013, 09:16 PM
RE: Why materialism has worn out...
(13-04-2013 11:15 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(13-04-2013 09:00 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Saying science owes its success to Christianity is like saying deer owe their success to wolves. Dodgy

You give far to much credit for christianity as Deer do owe the wolves (and other predators) their continued success. Without the wolf to pick out the weak and to keep the deer from overpopulating the species would not be as successful as they indeed are.

As to the fact that European science ended up surpassing the rest of the worlds it is actually due to a Chinese import. The Black Death. Before the majority of Europe was stricken dead or lame by the Bubonic Plague (roughly 50% dead and another 25% crippled) inefficient systems were not a problem. If anything the population in Europe pre-plague was such that there were more hands to do the job than jobs that needed hands.

However after 3/4's of the former population were removed from the equation the survivors had a massive shortfall in healthy able bodies and needed to get the most "bang for their buck" as it were. This is the point on those graphs that show the accumulated knowledge of mankind ceasing it's stagnation and beginning again to rise. The coincidence that Europe had an anti-intellectual death cult as it's main fairy tale had less to do with the subsequent rise of Europe and it's descendants than a simple examination of Work that needs to be done vs Labor pool available to do such work. Before the black death automation had always been a toy to amuse (see the greek holy water dispenser here) after the labor force was reduced to almost nothing it became vital.

Have you read Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond?
Its very interesting and hard to put down.

The book attempts to explain why Eurasian civilizations (in which he includes North Africa) have survived and conquered others, while arguing against the idea that Eurasian hegemony is due to any form of Eurasian intellectual, moral or inherent genetic superiority.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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13-04-2013, 09:48 PM
RE: Why materialism has worn out...
(13-04-2013 09:16 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(13-04-2013 11:15 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  You give far to much credit for christianity as Deer do owe the wolves (and other predators) their continued success. Without the wolf to pick out the weak and to keep the deer from overpopulating the species would not be as successful as they indeed are.

As to the fact that European science ended up surpassing the rest of the worlds it is actually due to a Chinese import. The Black Death. Before the majority of Europe was stricken dead or lame by the Bubonic Plague (roughly 50% dead and another 25% crippled) inefficient systems were not a problem. If anything the population in Europe pre-plague was such that there were more hands to do the job than jobs that needed hands.

However after 3/4's of the former population were removed from the equation the survivors had a massive shortfall in healthy able bodies and needed to get the most "bang for their buck" as it were. This is the point on those graphs that show the accumulated knowledge of mankind ceasing it's stagnation and beginning again to rise. The coincidence that Europe had an anti-intellectual death cult as it's main fairy tale had less to do with the subsequent rise of Europe and it's descendants than a simple examination of Work that needs to be done vs Labor pool available to do such work. Before the black death automation had always been a toy to amuse (see the greek holy water dispenser here) after the labor force was reduced to almost nothing it became vital.

Have you read Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond?
Its very interesting and hard to put down.

The book attempts to explain why Eurasian civilizations (in which he includes North Africa) have survived and conquered others, while arguing against the idea that Eurasian hegemony is due to any form of Eurasian intellectual, moral or inherent genetic superiority.

No I haven't read that but have heard the argument both pro and con. Personally I think it has a lot to do with what I said above. Western Europe was unique in a few ways and thats what lead to it's ultimate rise.

First off most of the rest of the world's power bases were ruled over by great and very powerful empires that reduced the need for wartime technology. Eastern Europe was ruled first by the ERE/Byzantine only to be replaced by the Turkish empire. The far east of course had China who was always content to rule over the 7 kingdoms and other than a few token attempts at expansion never really tried to grow through warfare. The America's of course were ruled by 2 great empires, the Aztec in the north and the Inca's in the south. Africa had it's Ethiopian empire along with the Zulu and smaller empires spread about. Africa also had sufficient land in between it's major powers that wars between them were very few and far between.

Western Europe however was a hodgepodge of various powers that squabbled with each other nearly nonstop from the fall of Rome up until the end of WW2. Add to that the fact that western Europe is rather mineral poor compared to most other area's and you have an interesting situation. Thus we have nations that comparably were several hundred years ahead of the rest of the world in weapons technology. This alone would have proven an almost overwhelming advantage once Europe turned it's gaze outward.

Now the germ part of it has to do with the European domestic animals and the bugs that most of Europe had developed a resistance to. This however was more detrimental to the American Continents as Africa and Asia both tended to have the same diseases and in some cases had others that Europeans had almost no immunity to. In the case of the Mezo-americans there can be no doubt that small pox and other illnesses were a major factor in their decline however what is not talked about much is how most of the Aztec empire had already been decimated by an unknown pathogen about 50 years before the spanish arrived.

So between the European military advantage, the fact that all forms of technology were being sought after for labor saving the need (or want) of minerals it's not really a wonder that Europe has dominated the globe for the last 500 years.

So yeah I kind of like history, it's a hobby Blush

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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14-04-2013, 08:32 AM
RE: Why materialism has worn out...
You didn't answer my question, Vosur.

Why was it men only? How is that possible or acceptable?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-04-2013, 10:53 AM
RE: Why materialism has worn out...
(14-04-2013 08:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  You didn't answer my question, Vosur.
What question? Consider

(14-04-2013 08:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  Why was it men only?
I don't know.

(14-04-2013 08:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  How is that possible or acceptable?
Well, as far as I know, if you host a private event, you're the one who gets to decide who can or cannot participate.

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14-04-2013, 11:04 AM
RE: Why materialism has worn out...
(13-04-2013 10:49 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  ...
quantum entanglement
...
The transmission of information between two particles with opposite spin faster than light, (actually "instantly") is one of the things they have always known about, and is not understood, and it proves there is something missing from the Standard Model, or perhaps other dimensions.
...

Silly.

This one is easy.

There is NO transmission of information because it's the same particle, mirror image, in the other universe.

Drinking Beverage

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14-04-2013, 04:36 PM
RE: Why materialism has worn out...
(14-04-2013 10:53 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(14-04-2013 08:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  You didn't answer my question, Vosur.
What question? Consider

(14-04-2013 08:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  Why was it men only?
I don't know.

(14-04-2013 08:32 AM)Chas Wrote:  How is that possible or acceptable?
Well, as far as I know, if you host a private event, you're the one who gets to decide who can or cannot participate.

I guess what I am really asking is who hosted it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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