Why not kill Jesus as soon he's born?
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31-12-2015, 04:43 PM
RE: Why not kill Jesus as soon he's born?
(31-12-2015 05:55 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(28-12-2015 02:40 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  No. The one who invented Christianity.

I often wonder what life would be like now if Paul hadn't done all that PR work and come up with the viral marketing strategy of promoting the product to Gentiles.

Chances are that christianity wouldn't have even been on the shortlist when Constantine flipped his coin when choosing which tribes to enlist for his wars.

iirc Mithras (or was it Mithrandir) was a possible choice. So maybe Jason, Alla and Pops would be wishing everyone a Merry Mithmas and giving gifts of dwarfish silver?

Consider

Of course, I could be labouring under a mithapprehension and getting my mithology confused.

Big Grin

"I often wonder what life would be like now if Paul hadn't done all that PR work and come up with the viral marketing strategy of promoting the product to Gentiles"


Mmmmm. An interesting question.Consider

Probably
- gay people everywhere would have equal respect
- we would all be not so ashamed of our sexuality
- women would be more powerful
- half the wars of the last 2000 years might not have happened
- we, the human race, would be significantly more advanced...scientifically and ethically
- there would be a lot less racism in the world
- there would be far more respect for individual's rights
- all of today's priests and preachers would have to find real jobs

Has there ever been an individual who has poisoned the history and ethics of the world to such a degree as Paul? Huh No. No Hitler and Stalin were minnows compared to Paul.
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31-12-2015, 04:53 PM (This post was last modified: 01-01-2016 09:23 AM by Commonsensei.)
RE: Why not kill Jesus as soon he's born?
(28-12-2015 12:23 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I think the short answer would be that if he died as a infant, none of the prophecies would have been fulfilled so there would have been no reason for anyone to believe he was the Messiah.


“While traveling through a forest, a person noticed a circle marked on a tree with an arrow shot perfectly into the center. A few yards away he noticed several more targets, each with arrows in the center. Later, he met the talented archer and he asked him, "How did you become such an expert that you always get your arrows into the center of the bull's-eye?" "It's not difficult," responded the archer, "First I shoot the arrow and then I draw the circle."”

Many of the "prophecies" weren't fulfilled.

Here is a the criteria that need to be filled in order to be the Messiah.

1) Must be Jewish

2) Must be a member of the tribe of Judah and a direct male descendent of both King David and King Solomon.

3) H must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Isreal.

4) He Must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem

5) He must bring World Peace.

6)He must influence the enitre world to acknowledge and serve one God.

"And My servant David will be a king over them, and they will all have one shepherd, and they will walk in my ordinances, and keep my statutes, and observe them, and they shall live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant...and I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their G-d and they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever."

Ezekiel 37: 24-28

Now many believers may say "Well some of his prophecies have yet to been fulfilled yet."

I would say "If I didn't turn in a 3rd grade test to Ms. Newman. And keep telling people that I will even thou Ms. Newman is dead, and it's been 28 years since i've had her class. Should I still get a passing grade?" And if yes, what is the shelf life for that? 30? 50? 2000 years?

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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06-01-2016, 04:26 AM
RE: Why not kill Jesus as soon he's born?
(31-12-2015 11:56 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(31-12-2015 07:13 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Fixt.

Thumbsup

Doesn't rhyme scan. No

Fixt!

Rolleyes

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06-01-2016, 06:53 PM
RE: Why not kill Jesus as soon he's born?
(31-12-2015 04:53 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  
(28-12-2015 12:23 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I think the short answer would be that if he died as a infant, none of the prophecies would have been fulfilled so there would have been no reason for anyone to believe he was the Messiah.

Many of the "prophecies" weren't fulfilled.

None of the prophecies were fulfilled.

For something to be a legitimate prophecy, it must meet several criteria:

It must actually be a prophecy. Not a documentation of events that is misinterpreted as a prophecy after a similar event occurs later.

It cannot be something that people are already working toward.

It must be written before the events that it predicts.

The predicted events must actually occur.

The prediction must be both falsifiable and verifiable.

It must not be overly vague.

It must not predict a likely event.

It must not be self-fulfilling.

All the so called prophecies in the Bible are guilty of violating at least one of these, but more often several of these.
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06-01-2016, 06:55 PM
RE: Why not kill Jesus as soon he's born?
Why wait til Jesus was born? Joseph should of had Mary drink one of those potions they get from the Rabbi mentioned in the OT. Drink that portion to prove her virtue.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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06-01-2016, 07:06 PM
RE: Why not kill Jesus as soon he's born?
(06-01-2016 06:53 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  
(31-12-2015 04:53 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Many of the "prophecies" weren't fulfilled.

None of the prophecies were fulfilled.

For something to be a legitimate prophecy, it must meet several criteria:

It must actually be a prophecy. Not a documentation of events that is misinterpreted as a prophecy after a similar event occurs later.

It cannot be something that people are already working toward.

It must be written before the events that it predicts.

The predicted events must actually occur.

The prediction must be both falsifiable and verifiable.

It must not be overly vague.

It must not predict a likely event.

It must not be self-fulfilling.

All the so called prophecies in the Bible are guilty of violating at least one of these, but more often several of these.
And isaiah 53?
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06-01-2016, 07:32 PM (This post was last modified: 07-01-2016 08:45 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Why not kill Jesus as soon he's born?
(06-01-2016 07:06 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(06-01-2016 06:53 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  None of the prophecies were fulfilled.

For something to be a legitimate prophecy, it must meet several criteria:

It must actually be a prophecy. Not a documentation of events that is misinterpreted as a prophecy after a similar event occurs later.

It cannot be something that people are already working toward.

It must be written before the events that it predicts.

The predicted events must actually occur.

The prediction must be both falsifiable and verifiable.

It must not be overly vague.

It must not predict a likely event.

It must not be self-fulfilling.

All the so called prophecies in the Bible are guilty of violating at least one of these, but more often several of these.
And isaiah 53?

That would be number 1 on the list:

It must actually be a prophecy. Not a documentation of events that is misinterpreted as a prophecy after a similar event occurs later.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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07-01-2016, 08:38 AM (This post was last modified: 07-01-2016 09:09 AM by The Organic Chemist.)
RE: Why not kill Jesus as soon he's born?
(06-01-2016 06:53 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  None of the prophecies were fulfilled.

Oh come on man.
Messiah would be born of a woman: Genesis 3:15.

This clearly was intended to foreshadow the messiah. I mean, who else could possibly fulfill this requirement?

For a good laugh: 44 Prophecies of the Messiah Fulfilled in Jesus Christ

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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07-01-2016, 09:03 AM
RE: Why not kill Jesus as soon he's born?
(06-01-2016 07:06 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  And isaiah 53?

I think Isaiah 53 is more referring to the nation of Israel, not to a man. If you look at Isaiah 52 which is setting up chapter 53, it does not appear to be reading as if the intent was to be referring to a particular man. Like Job, this is likely a commentary on the plight of Israel at the time, a social commentary. Think about it, it refers to "the servant." Christians think that Jesus was god which would not make him a servant. Israel was the chosen people in their eyes and they were selected to serve Yahway. In that context, Isaiah 53 is more of a commentary on the state of the nation itself. Think about Isaiah 52:13-15 and what the Iseralites was reportedly doing under the likes of Joshua and Moses? Kings shut their mouths because of "the servant" because they were overrun and slaughtered. Go count how many kings were killed by the Isrealites in the OT. This makes far more sense than anything Jesus ever did or has ever done with resepect to shutting up kings. The "he" in chapter 53 makes far more sense if you see it as a take on the ordeal of the time and the state of the people. They were the bullies of the area and other nations were sick of it. Isaiah 53 makes much more sense if you look at it as a social commentary.

Additionally, look at what the gospels say. One day Jesus is riding into Jerusalem and according to the gospels, he was greeted like a king (after he stole a ride). The gospels paint him as a beloved person who only the leaders hated (the Sadducees had a reason but the Pharisees really didn't but that's another discussion). So why then did the people who loved him and came from all around suddenly turn on him? Because....Plot. The gospels don't really address this and it is more like a poorly fleshed out plot device. It is almost as if the gospel narrative was tailored to fit Isaiah 53..... Consider

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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07-01-2016, 09:49 AM
RE: Why not kill Jesus as soon he's born?
(07-01-2016 09:03 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(06-01-2016 07:06 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  And isaiah 53?

I think Isaiah 53 is more referring to the nation of Israel, not to a man. If you look at Isaiah 52 which is setting up chapter 53, it does not appear to be reading as if the intent was to be referring to a particular man. Like Job, this is likely a commentary on the plight of Israel at the time, a social commentary. Think about it, it refers to "the servant." Christians think that Jesus was god which would not make him a servant. Israel was the chosen people in their eyes and they were selected to serve Yahway. In that context, Isaiah 53 is more of a commentary on the state of the nation itself. Think about Isaiah 52:13-15 and what the Iseralites was reportedly doing under the likes of Joshua and Moses? Kings shut their mouths because of "the servant" because they were overrun and slaughtered. Go count how many kings were killed by the Isrealites in the OT. This makes far more sense than anything Jesus ever did or has ever done with resepect to shutting up kings. The "he" in chapter 53 makes far more sense if you see it as a take on the ordeal of the time and the state of the people. They were the bullies of the area and other nations were sick of it. Isaiah 53 makes much more sense if you look at it as a social commentary.

Additionally, look at what the gospels say. One day Jesus is riding into Jerusalem and according to the gospels, he was greeted like a king (after he stole a ride). The gospels paint him as a beloved person who only the leaders hated (the Sadducees had a reason but the Pharisees really didn't but that's another discussion). So why then did the people who loved him and came from all around suddenly turn on him? Because....Plot. The gospels don't really address this and it is more like a poorly fleshed out plot device. It is almost as if the gospel narrative was tailored to fit Isaiah 53..... Consider

Isaiah states who the suffering servant is as well:

Isaiah 41:8-9

But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.”


Isaiah 44:1

But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen!

Isaiah 44:21

Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 45:4

For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I called you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.

Isaiah 48:20

Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it, send it out to the end of the earth; say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!”

Isaiah 49:3

And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”


Who is God’s Suffering Servant? The Rabbinic Interpretation of Isaiah 53

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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