Why people need God for morality
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20-02-2010, 09:32 PM
 
Why people need God for morality
I saw the video posted, and had some of my own thoughts to share...

I know some extremely logical smart people who can't get over the idea of morality existing without of God. We continually try pointing to evidence, but it's pointless because the obstacle is also very personal.

If someone is able to lead a good and moral life without God, what does it say about the person who feels that God is required to live by those same standards? When it becomes obvious that "Maybe you need religion to keep you from raping and murdering others, but I don't." It's not just a debate it's a matter of personal character. Think of the scenario of the person who goes to Christianity because they think their slate gets wiped clean and they get to start over. If they ever admitted that morality was a choice and not church they would have to re-own the responsibility of their actions.

just some food for thought. I find that atheists are very rational people who try to explain things to theists in very rational and logical terms that are completely ignored because there is an emotional barrier that filters out whatever they need to feel safe and happy.
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20-02-2010, 10:05 PM
 
RE: Why people need God for morality
hello,

please email mail martinb59@cox.net

Thanks,

Martin
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21-02-2010, 06:31 AM
 
RE: Why people need God for morality
(20-02-2010 09:32 PM)AnthongRedbeard Wrote:  I saw the video posted, and had some of my own thoughts to share...

I know some extremely logical smart people who can't get over the idea of morality existing without of God. We continually try pointing to evidence, but it's pointless because the obstacle is also very personal.

If someone is able to lead a good and moral life without God, what does it say about the person who feels that God is required to live by those same standards? When it becomes obvious that "Maybe you need religion to keep you from raping and murdering others, but I don't." It's not just a debate it's a matter of personal character. Think of the scenario of the person who goes to Christianity because they think their slate gets wiped clean and they get to start over. If they ever admitted that morality was a choice and not church they would have to re-own the responsibility of their actions.

just some food for thought. I find that atheists are very rational people who try to explain things to theists in very rational and logical terms that are completely ignored because there is an emotional barrier that filters out whatever they need to feel safe and happy.

Two articles to point to:

Atheists 'just as ethical as churchgoers'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/71891...goers.html

Study Links Religion and Racism
http://uscnews.usc.edu/university/study_...cism.html#

So, from an Atheist's perspective, here's why Idon't need god...

Looking at the second article, I began to think about my worldview. I'm a firm believer that we are all the same in the end. Take away our differences (accents, skin color, etc.)...we all still bleed the same blood, have the same physiology and we all care deeply for our children, our families, our friends. None of that can be attributed to a supernatural source (using the same argument as always, if we based our morals on OT or NT values, there would be NO humans today as we would have killed ourselves off by now).

The first article just makes me proud overall that someone took the time to do the study I have been wanting to see since becoming an Atheist. It only confirms what I (and others) have been saying all along...we can be good without god. Big Grin
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21-02-2010, 11:16 AM
 
RE: Why people need God for morality
I agree, but I think the question is... Are there people who can't be good without thinking there is a God? If so, would that alter how you deal with them?
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21-02-2010, 01:21 PM
 
RE: Why people need God for morality
You don't need God to know that murder, lying, cheating, divorce etc is wrong. I am divorced, it is wrong, but it takes two to get married and one to get divorced. What a person who believes in the Bible would say is that murder, divorce, homosexuality etc. will ALWAYS be wrong and public opinion will not change that. We abort babies, at one time that was against the law. Same sex marriage was against the law, and that will probably be changed in the future. To the extreme we might be able to pass a law that says anyone over 75 needs to die because they are taking more out of the economy than they are putting in, they have huge medical bills that raise the insurance rates, etc. The Bible would say that will always be wrong. The never changing aspect of the Bible is the moral compass so to speak. That does not mean that some Christians aren't gay divorced murderers. The Bible even mentions some of the people that have done those things. For example David committed adultery and had her husband killed. Now atheist will point to that and say God allowed that and David was king. But what they fail to see is David's sin with Bathsheba was an abuse of his authority as king, and the events of these chapters confirm that his adultery, private though it may have been, had enormous public consequences. Because of his sin, David lost the kingdom for a time...In the end David's kingdom was revived, but not without considerable loss of life, authority, prestige, and vitality. David also suffered grievous personal consequences from his sin You can't blame the creator for what someone does with their creation. For example guns when someone is murdered, or a car company when a someone drives in a crowd of people. God set the laws, God put the people here he gave us free will to good and along with that comes the ability to evil.

Christians should be way higher on the morality scale, they are not, but that does not disprove God.
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21-02-2010, 01:23 PM
 
RE: Why people need God for morality
(21-02-2010 11:16 AM)AnthongRedbeard Wrote:  I agree, but I think the question is... Are there people who can't be good without thinking there is a God? If so, would that alter how you deal with them?

I think that maybe there are people who really can't be good without "God." Their entire view on life and how they act is based upon otherworldly rewards after they expire. If they somehow figured out that there was no reward at the end, what incentive do they have to continue good behavior? It's rather selfish when you think about it. Now I'm not saying this is true to all religious people but it's just an idea. I behave morally because it's just the right thing to do and the right way to treat others. Not because I think there's a giant cookie at the end of the maze. In fact, I'm much more polite, patient and kind to people than my Christian, church-going mother-in-law.
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21-02-2010, 02:04 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
As an atheist, I see basic morals coming from our nature, and the fine points coming from our community. Although the optimist in me likes to say that the nature breed into humans is too strong for a theist going atheist to go on a killing rampage, I wonder. Looking at places and times like Nazi Germany, we see that our society has a lot to do with our morals. So if a theist somehow is forced to become an atheist, would they be able to find their morals from within, or would they think they lost their sense of right and wrong with their faith in god? I have always wondered that.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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21-02-2010, 02:56 PM
 
RE: Why people need God for morality
(21-02-2010 01:23 PM)Murder North Wrote:  
(21-02-2010 11:16 AM)AnthongRedbeard Wrote:  I agree, but I think the question is... Are there people who can't be good without thinking there is a God? If so, would that alter how you deal with them?

I think that maybe there are people who really can't be good without "God." Their entire view on life and how they act is based upon otherworldly rewards after they expire. If they somehow figured out that there was no reward at the end, what incentive do they have to continue good behavior? It's rather selfish when you think about it. Now I'm not saying this is true to all religious people but it's just an idea. I behave morally because it's just the right thing to do and the right way to treat others. Not because I think there's a giant cookie at the end of the maze. In fact, I'm much more polite, patient and kind to people than my Christian, church-going mother-in-law.

The Bible is Clear that it is not doing good that get's you to Heaven. I wish atheists would do a little research into that before they misquote the Bible.

I am generalizing because there are thousands of sects of each but eastern religions, for the most part, believe in Karma. They believe that what they do here will impact their future. If you do good you get reincarnated at a higher level or you will reach nirvana, or if you do bad you come back as bug etc. Those religions require you to do good if you want to go to a higher level. For a Christian doing good or acting morally is not a condition of getting to heaven. Doing good and acting morally as a Christian only shows that you are following the Bible. I can't identify one fruit tree from another (city boy) but I can look at the fruit and tell what kind of tree it is. If a Christian is drinking, having affairs, filled with rage, anger, lying etc. I can question his/her conversion. Christians do not do good because of "a giant cookie at the end of the maze"
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21-02-2010, 09:37 PM
 
RE: Why people need God for morality
(21-02-2010 02:04 PM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  As an atheist, I see basic morals coming from our nature, and the fine points coming from our community. Although the optimist in me likes to say that the nature breed into humans is too strong for a theist going atheist to go on a killing rampage, I wonder. Looking at places and times like Nazi Germany, we see that our society has a lot to do with our morals. So if a theist somehow is forced to become an atheist, would they be able to find their morals from within, or would they think they lost their sense of right and wrong with their faith in god? I have always wondered that.

See, I kind of disagree with your point above. For one, it would be interesting on HOW you would force a theist to become an Atheist. I don't speak for all Atheists; however, my coming around was my OWN choice. I went through the doubt about being moral without religion and, once I read the bible and found NO morality in it, I determined that my morality was derived from nature (evolution) and nurture (my upbringing).

I think a moral guidance apart from any religious text is required here...kind of like a UN 'golden rule', that would be enforceable (you already go to prison for stealing and murdering).

The one concept that comes to mind is Thomas Hobbes' Natural Law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law...atural_law

If we can derive our 'moral law' from a real-world source (what else will the philosophers have to do in the future?), then more people will hopefully realize that it is the here-and-now that matters more than the fantasy paradise they have been promised all along after they are dead (heaven).
(21-02-2010 01:23 PM)Murder North Wrote:  
(21-02-2010 11:16 AM)AnthongRedbeard Wrote:  I agree, but I think the question is... Are there people who can't be good without thinking there is a God? If so, would that alter how you deal with them?

I think that maybe there are people who really can't be good without "God." Their entire view on life and how they act is based upon otherworldly rewards after they expire. If they somehow figured out that there was no reward at the end, what incentive do they have to continue good behavior? It's rather selfish when you think about it. Now I'm not saying this is true to all religious people but it's just an idea. I behave morally because it's just the right thing to do and the right way to treat others. Not because I think there's a giant cookie at the end of the maze. In fact, I'm much more polite, patient and kind to people than my Christian, church-going mother-in-law.

It's kinda frightening, actually. I have had debates with theists on YouTube and some of their responses are scary. I had once suggested that life is what you make it, and it can be very rewarding. The theist simply said 'without god, life is not worth living'...terrifies me that people think this way...if you were to suddenly pull a belief of god away from them, how would they act out? Would it be 'moral' by their standards?
(21-02-2010 11:16 AM)AnthongRedbeard Wrote:  I agree, but I think the question is... Are there people who can't be good without thinking there is a God? If so, would that alter how you deal with them?

Another interesting study...YouTube vid:

Religion and Social Problems
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxTZv8c_G...re=related
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21-02-2010, 11:43 PM
 
RE: Why people need God for morality
(21-02-2010 09:37 PM)supermanlives1973 Wrote:  
(21-02-2010 02:04 PM)ashley.hunt60 Wrote:  As an atheist, I see basic morals coming from our nature, and the fine points coming from our community. Although the optimist in me likes to say that the nature breed into humans is too strong for a theist going atheist to go on a killing rampage, I wonder. Looking at places and times like Nazi Germany, we see that our society has a lot to do with our morals. So if a theist somehow is forced to become an atheist, would they be able to find their morals from within, or would they think they lost their sense of right and wrong with their faith in god? I have always wondered that.

See, I kind of disagree with your point above. For one, it would be interesting on HOW you would force a theist to become an Atheist. I don't speak for all Atheists; however, my coming around was my OWN choice. I went through the doubt about being moral without religion and, once I read the bible and found NO morality in it, I determined that my morality was derived from nature (evolution) and nurture (my upbringing).

I think a moral guidance apart from any religious text is required here...kind of like a UN 'golden rule', that would be enforceable (you already go to prison for stealing and murdering).

The one concept that comes to mind is Thomas Hobbes' Natural Law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law...atural_law

If we can derive our 'moral law' from a real-world source (what else will the philosophers have to do in the future?), then more people will hopefully realize that it is the here-and-now that matters more than the fantasy paradise they have been promised all along after they are dead (heaven).
(21-02-2010 01:23 PM)Murder North Wrote:  
(21-02-2010 11:16 AM)AnthongRedbeard Wrote:  I agree, but I think the question is... Are there people who can't be good without thinking there is a God? If so, would that alter how you deal with them?

I think that maybe there are people who really can't be good without "God." Their entire view on life and how they act is based upon otherworldly rewards after they expire. If they somehow figured out that there was no reward at the end, what incentive do they have to continue good behavior? It's rather selfish when you think about it. Now I'm not saying this is true to all religious people but it's just an idea. I behave morally because it's just the right thing to do and the right way to treat others. Not because I think there's a giant cookie at the end of the maze. In fact, I'm much more polite, patient and kind to people than my Christian, church-going mother-in-law.

It's kinda frightening, actually. I have had debates with theists on YouTube and some of their responses are scary. I had once suggested that life is what you make it, and it can be very rewarding. The theist simply said 'without god, life is not worth living'...terrifies me that people think this way...if you were to suddenly pull a belief of god away from them, how would they act out? Would it be 'moral' by their standards?
(21-02-2010 11:16 AM)AnthongRedbeard Wrote:  I agree, but I think the question is... Are there people who can't be good without thinking there is a God? If so, would that alter how you deal with them?

Another interesting study...YouTube vid:

Religion and Social Problems
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxTZv8c_G...re=related

SO supermanlives, you read the Bible and found nothing moral? So just using the 10 commandments as example, it says no killing, lying, adultery etc are those considered morals? My guess is you haven't read the bible. You hear things from others and use it. The immorality that atheists point out in the bible, are mainly stories to illustrate points. King David committed adultery and had the husband killed. Does that mean that God is responsible or endorses adultery? Absolutely not, there was lesson learned that we can all learn from David 1000's of years later. Forget doing a theological study, just do a wikipedia search for King David and see what that tells you.
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