Why people need God for morality
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02-11-2016, 06:24 PM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2016 06:45 PM by Velvet.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 05:57 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  A brain scan is unlikely to reveal that your brain is in a neutral state, or distinction between this neutral state, non-neutral state, no more so than a brain scan of a dog or a chimp would demonstrate such distinctions.

I say you desire more so to feel as if you're unbiased, neutral, objective, than to actually be neutral, unbiased, or objective. That there's a state you associate with this feeling, and preserving that state is what you value. And another state you associate with being bias, subjective, emotional, etc... that you desire to stay far away from. You don't want to be like certain people, but you do want to be like certain other people.

That there's likely a variety of individuals you admire, look up to, who you see as exemplar of that state, that you seek to emulate and embody. To take on the air in which they encompass to you. You repeat their slogans, and ditties, seek solace among those who seek the same.

And what do you believes drives this physical desire for truth? What evolutionary desire is fed by it?

Because you are unlikely to know better than myself what I do value or what I do not value, so its rude and presumptuous to state that you know it.

It also makes you look like you are trying to be a mentalist, which is a bit cool and a bit ridiculous.

So, anyways, while I cannot be completely unbiased, neutral and objective, I can try to, and seek the hardest I can for the best way of trying to do that.

No I don't seek to emulate and embody no one, and I don't repeat the slogans and ditties of any particular person, I only repeat the slogans and ditties that I considered valid, because I like to say valid things.

Yes, I do want to avoid the felling of being deceived. No I don't wish to preserve any facet of my felling of confusion, not particularly, I just think it is a necessary evil if one wants to avoid being deceived.

EDIT: I'm sincerely impressed that you know beforehand the likelihood of results of brain scans of me and both dogs and chimps.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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02-11-2016, 07:24 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 06:13 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 06:06 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  I believe lots of things, for example I believe you're a stupid little cunt who CAN'T STOP TELLING OTHER PEOPLE WHAT THEY THINK, no matter how many times you get called out on it.

Not sure why you're so worked up by what I've said here, but okay.
Really? You can't? Even though I fucking wrote it in all caps and put it in big bold letters? Even though I've mentioned it to you about a dozen or more times in the past?

Really you're that stupid?

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02-11-2016, 07:38 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 07:24 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 06:13 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Not sure why you're so worked up by what I've said here, but okay.
Really? You can't? Even though I fucking wrote it in all caps and put it in big bold letters? Even though I've mentioned it to you about a dozen or more times in the past?

Really you're that stupid?

No, he's not that stupid. But he is being a condescending little twat.

Note the comment above where he claims to be here "testing his hypothesis".

In the past he's stated that he likes to get into other people's personal space, push boundaries, provoke and prod. He also referred to Chick Tracts as "scholarly works."

He is not here for discussion. He's indulging in masturbatory fantasies of intellectualism and delusions of philosophical relevance.

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02-11-2016, 07:38 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 06:24 PM)Velvet Wrote:  So, anyways, while I cannot be completely unbiased, neutral and objective, I can try to, and seek the hardest I can for the best way of trying to do that.

Is this a uniquely human desire? Do chimps and dogs, seek be completely neutral, unbiased, objective? Why would a biological creature such as yourself, seek these things? What biological desire is being fed by this pursuit? What emotional vacuum does it fill?


Quote:EDIT: I'm sincerely impressed that you know beforehand the likelihood of results of brain scans of me and both dogs and chimps.

I'm more impressed by the level of magical thinking required for your own self-assements to hold as valid. It's romantic, and anti-darwinian. Makes little sense from an evolutionary perspective. But I'd be curious to hear you attempting to reconcile the two.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-11-2016, 07:50 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 07:38 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 06:24 PM)Velvet Wrote:  So, anyways, while I cannot be completely unbiased, neutral and objective, I can try to, and seek the hardest I can for the best way of trying to do that.

Is this a uniquely human desire? Do chimps and dogs, seek be completely neutral, unbiased, objective? Why would a biological creature such as yourself, seek these things? What biological desire is being fed by this pursuit? What emotional vacuum does it fill?


Quote:EDIT: I'm sincerely impressed that you know beforehand the likelihood of results of brain scans of me and both dogs and chimps.

I'm more impressed by the level of magical thinking required for your own self-assements to hold as valid. It's romantic, and anti-darwinian. Makes little sense from an evolutionary perspective. But I'd be curious to hear you attempting to reconcile the two.

You are really more impressed by the number of assumptions required for me to hold my own self-assessments as valid than for a person to know beforehand the likelihood of results from multiple brain scans from both humans and animals?

Its anti-darwinian, romantic and makes little sense from an evolutionary perspective to want to avoid being deceived?

Are you serious?

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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02-11-2016, 07:59 PM
Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 07:50 PM)Velvet Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 07:38 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Is this a uniquely human desire? Do chimps and dogs, seek be completely neutral, unbiased, objective? Why would a biological creature such as yourself, seek these things? What biological desire is being fed by this pursuit? What emotional vacuum does it fill?



I'm more impressed by the level of magical thinking required for your own self-assements to hold as valid. It's romantic, and anti-darwinian. Makes little sense from an evolutionary perspective. But I'd be curious to hear you attempting to reconcile the two.

You are really more impressed by the number of assumptions required for me to hold my own self-assessments as valid than for a person to know beforehand the likelihood of results from multiple brain scans from both humans and animals?

So you can't answer the questions I raised?

And yes given what we already know about the brain, and evolution, we can safely say that we're unlikely to see a distinction between a non-neutral and neutral brain, because the later is unlikely to exist.








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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-11-2016, 08:04 PM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2016 08:18 PM by Velvet.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 07:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  So you can't answer the questions I raised?

And yes given what we already know about the brain, and evolution, we can safely say that we're unlikely to see a distinction between a non-neutral and neutral brain, because the later is unlikely to exist.

I didn't want to offend you implying that you were so stupid that those questions really needed to be asked as if you didn't know the obvious answer.

[Image: fe939a41a441c012e9551160a7cffdf1.jpg]

Is clearly advantageous on evolutionary terms to not be deceived by how things appear to be.

[Image: article-2578254-1C2FAD3700000578-151_634x418.jpg]

Btw, we both know that a neutral stance in belief sense is not a neutral brain state, why are you treating both those things as if they were one?

You will likely agree that a confused brain scan would look different from a certain one... You were trying to go somewhere with this argument anyways?

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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02-11-2016, 08:19 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 08:04 PM)Velvet Wrote:  We both know that a neutral stance in belief sense is not a neutral brain state, why are you treating both those things as if they were one?

If a stance in one's belief is not reducible to a brain state, or process of the brain then it does not exist.

But I'll ask the question I asked you earlier again, because I would like to hear your response:

"Is this a uniquely human desire? Do chimps and dogs, seek to be completely neutral, unbiased, objective? Why would a biological creature such as yourself, seek these things? What biological desire is being fed by this pursuit? What emotional vacuum does it fill? "

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-11-2016, 08:22 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 02:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Young children seem to recognize just fine that stealing is wrong, hurting innocent people is wrong, absent of developing some elaborate moral philosophy, or guideline. In fact those of us who might have spent some time thinking of our own moral philosophy, are more or less just producing a set of rationalizations after the fact.
You are inserting god where sociology, psychology, and genetics belong. And children are taught morality from the day they are born.

(02-11-2016 02:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  People seem to know at some level, that they should be kind rather than cruel, love others, care for the downtrodden, be fair, don't harm the innocent, etc..even if they often fail to do so.
This is your perspective. You think this because it is your own moral sense that you have learned over the course of your life up to now. However, there are people who don't know at all that they should be kind. Those are very cruel people, but they do exist. It's hard for you (or me) to be able to fully understand that because it is so foreign to our own way of thinking. But they exist exactly because kindness and morality are not magically instilled in any of us.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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02-11-2016, 08:24 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
Sorry, double post, ignore.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
-P.C. Hodgell - Seeker’s Mask - Kirien
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