Why people need God for morality
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02-11-2016, 08:26 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 08:19 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  But I'll ask the question I asked you earlier again, because I would like to hear your response:

"Is this a uniquely human desire? Do chimps and dogs, seek to be completely neutral, unbiased, objective?

Is this a trick question? Chimps and dogs are incapable of the concepts.

(02-11-2016 08:19 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Why would a biological creature such as yourself, seek these things?

Another trick question? Because they have proven to be useful to me obviously.

(02-11-2016 08:19 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  What biological desire is being fed by this pursuit?

I always figured it was wanting to know what the fuck was going on and realizing this is best done dispassionately. But you might have different reasons.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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02-11-2016, 08:27 PM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2016 08:35 PM by Velvet.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
I actually answered your question...

I don't seek necessarily to be neutral, unbiased and objective, I seek to avoid being deceived, trying to be neutral, unbiased and objective are just the best tools that I currently have on my disposal.

Biological creatures like me would rather avoid being deceived because otherwise I would be eaten by a tiger.

Quote:If a stance in one's belief is not reducible to a brain state, or process of the brain then it does not exist.

You misunderstood what I said? The neutral dialectical stance is not the same as a neutral brain state, I haven't said it doesn't have its own brain state, I said it is not the same as a neutral brain state, would most likely be what would be described as a ''confused'' brain state, we can say that people who are confused have a brain state which is not the same of people who are not confused, can't we?/don't they?

Remind me again why are we using ''we can say'' to brain scans hypothesis when we don't actually have a clue of how brain exams and states actually work?

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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02-11-2016, 08:36 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 03:33 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  No there's a generic God, used in variety of specific stories. Nones, the none religious that tend to belief in God, tend to subscribe to a generic one. Diest tend to subscribe to a generic God.
What does this "generic god" say about morality - what is right and what is wrong? Before you answer, the next question is "how do you know this and how do you know it comes from a god"? And I do mean "know" - as in, nothing else can possibly explain how you arrived at your moral knowledge. (Careful when you reply, don't upset your parents who taught you...)

(02-11-2016 03:33 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  A generic God, tends to posses the properties of God shared among a variety of religious traditions , but lacks the specific properties exclusive to one particular religion.
How utterly convenient. Rolleyes

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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02-11-2016, 08:37 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 08:22 PM)Impulse Wrote:  You are inserting god where sociology, psychology, and genetics belong. And children are taught morality from the day they are born.

No, I'm inserting biology. That a variety of moral beliefs, like moral behaviors, and tendencies, have biological underpinning, and are not purely a product of culture. That our biological inclinations can elicit a wide variety of beliefs, found across cultures. When speaking of other animals and their moral tendencies and inclination, the biological aspects are self-evident. We might mirror the same exact behaviors as a result of our own biological underpinning, only difference is that we are likely to articulate these tendencies in the form of beliefs.

Quote:This is your perspective. You think this because it is your own moral sense that you have learned over the course of your life up to now. However, there are people who don't know at all that they should be kind. Those are very cruel people, but they do exist. It's hard for you (or me) to be able to fully understand that because it is so foreign to our own way of thinking. But they exist exactly because kindness and morality are not magically instilled in any of us.


Did these cruel people tell you that they didn't know that they ought to be kind? Or do you just assume because they were cruel, that they didn't know they ought to be kind?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-11-2016, 08:38 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 05:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 05:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  I have, on several occasions, pointed out the likely evolutionary basis of our common 'moral sense'. It is based on empathy, in-group/out-group feelings, and self-preservation.
Evolution has selected for care of the young, self-sacrifice for close family members, and other factors on which moralities are based.

But the actual moral rules that people get are the product of those filtered through particular cultures.

Again you seem to want to paint in black and while. You acknowledge a common moral sense, as a result of evolutionary factors, rather than cultural factors. But yet can't seem to accept that a variety of moral beliefs can be the result of evolutionary factors as well.

Such as the example of a mother evolutionary bond with her infant, leading a mother to believe it's morally wrong to abandon one's child.

It's not true that absent of a culture to influence her into believing this, that she wouldn't be led to believe this based on those biological underpinnings. The only difference between her and a chimp that feels the same underlying sensations and feelings, is that the mother attempts to articulate this in a belief.

Please re-read what I wrote since you seem to have misunderstood me.

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02-11-2016, 08:40 PM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2016 08:46 PM by Velvet.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 03:33 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  No there's a generic God, used in variety of specific stories. Nones, the none religious that tend to belief in God, tend to subscribe to a generic one. Diest tend to subscribe to a generic God.
(02-11-2016 03:33 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  A generic God, tends to posses the properties of God shared among a variety of religious traditions , but lacks the specific properties exclusive to one particular religion.

Now that I read this I would like to say you are wrong, Deists tend to subscribe to a impersonal God, describing it as ''generic'' is wrong (if we were to use your own definition of generic god)

Deists presuppose a deity which is something like a force, a law, a way of things to work, unmoved mover, a prime cause , an universe generator, and many other abstract concepts like that.

None of them could EVER be Yahweh.

Listen to me Tomasia, if you have a bit of decency and intellectual integrity, don't use deistic arguments to make yourself feel justified about your Theism, DON'T.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
-P.C. Hodgell - Seeker’s Mask - Kirien
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02-11-2016, 08:46 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 08:36 PM)Impulse Wrote:  What does this "generic god" say about morality - what is right and what is wrong?

That you ought to do what is right.

Quote:Before you answer, the next question is "how do you know this and how do you know it comes from a god"?

Because you can't get an ought from an is without one.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-11-2016, 08:51 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 08:37 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, I'm inserting biology. That a variety of moral beliefs, like moral behaviors, and tendencies, have biological underpinning, and are not purely a product of culture. That our biological inclinations can elicit a wide variety of beliefs, found across cultures. When speaking of other animals and their moral tendencies and inclination, the biological aspects are self-evident. We might mirror the same exact behaviors as a result of our own biological underpinning, only difference is that we are likely to articulate these tendencies in the form of beliefs.
When did you change your position? Consider Earlier back in this thread when you and I first started discussing this, your position was that morality comes from a god, not biology.

(02-11-2016 08:37 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Did these cruel people tell you that they didn't know that they ought to be kind? Or do you just assume because they were cruel, that they didn't know they ought to be kind?
The key word is "ought" (or originally "should"). They know of kindness, but they couldn't care less to do anything related to it. In fact, they take pleasure in the opposite and, for them, cruelty is what they "should" do because in their view it's the only thing that benefits them.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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02-11-2016, 08:53 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 08:46 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 08:36 PM)Impulse Wrote:  What does this "generic god" say about morality - what is right and what is wrong?

That you ought to do what is right.

Quote:Before you answer, the next question is "how do you know this and how do you know it comes from a god"?

Because you can't get an ought from an is without one.
That's not an answer. You were asked what is right and what is wrong. Please be specific. You know, for some it's the 10 commandments. What's your list and where does it come from? You can't have an "ought" without a clear right vs. wrong.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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02-11-2016, 08:55 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 08:40 PM)Velvet Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 03:33 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  No there's a generic God, used in variety of specific stories. Nones, the none religious that tend to belief in God, tend to subscribe to a generic one. Diest tend to subscribe to a generic God.
(02-11-2016 03:33 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  A generic God, tends to posses the properties of God shared among a variety of religious traditions , but lacks the specific properties exclusive to one particular religion.

Now that I read this I would like to say you are wrong, Deists tend to subscribe to a impersonal God, describing it as ''generic'' is wrong (if we were to use your own definition of generic god)

Deists presuppose a deity which is something like a force, a law, a way of things to work, unmoved mover, a prime cause , an universe generator, and many other abstract concepts like that.

None of them could EVER be Yahweh.

Listen to me Tomasia, if you have a bit of decency and intellectual integrity, don't use deistic arguments to make yourself feel justified about your Theism, DON'T.

Tomasia, again, Deistic Deities are not a source for objective morality, and are certainly not Yahweh, stop giving a blowjob to your own delusion (and a dishonest one).

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
-P.C. Hodgell - Seeker’s Mask - Kirien
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