Why people need God for morality
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02-11-2016, 09:00 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 08:40 PM)Velvet Wrote:  Listen to me Tomasia, if you have a bit of decency and intellectual integrity, don't use deistic arguments to make yourself feel justified about your Theism, DON'T.

I wasn't aware that I was using deistic arguments to justify theism, lol. I mentioned there is a generic conception of God, a point than a variety of traditions that don't subscribe to exclusive monotheism already note, this isn't an argument for theism, but just the meaning of a word.

I also didn't claim that I hold such a belief, in fact I'm a theist, who holds to a very specific conception of God.

Quote:Now that I read this I would like to say you are wrong, Deists tend to subscribe to a impersonal God, describing it as ''generic'' is wrong (if we were to use your own definition of generic god)

No it's pretty generic, immaterial, transcendent creator god, irrespective of any particular religion, or tradition, etc... It's a God without a home.

Quote:Deists presuppose a deity which is something like a force, a law, a way of things to work, unmoved mover, a prime cause , an universe generator, and many other abstract concepts like that.

So do plenty of theists, arguing for a prime mover etc.... Though they believe a variety of additional more specific beliefs about this God, than a deist.


Quote:None of them could EVER be Yahweh.

Yahweh is a specific God.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-11-2016, 09:02 PM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2016 09:06 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 08:55 PM)Velvet Wrote:  Tomasia, again, Deistic Deities are not a source for objective morality, and are certainly not Yahweh, stop giving a blowjob to your own delusion (and a dishonest one).

For Deist who subscribe to objective morality, it is, like the founding fathers who believed in inalienable rights endowed by their deistic creator. I'm not sure how pointing this out amounts to giving a blowjob to my own delusion. Since it doesn't particularly make my "delusions" more likely to be true.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-11-2016, 09:19 PM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2016 05:31 AM by Velvet.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 09:02 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 08:55 PM)Velvet Wrote:  Tomasia, again, Deistic Deities are not a source for objective morality, and are certainly not Yahweh, stop giving a blowjob to your own delusion (and a dishonest one).

For Deist who subscribe to objective morality, it is, like the founding fathers who believed in inalienable rights endowed by their deistic creator. I'm not sure how pointing this out amounts to giving a blowjob to my own delusion. Since it doesn't particularly make my "delusions" more likely to be true.

Ok if you are aware that this doesn't make your delusions more likely to be true, no problem then, forgive my harshness on the theme, I'm very tired to see theist debaters using arguments that don't actually support their world view, like the cosmological argument being overused by WL Craig, a very skilled and immensely dishonest theist rhetorician.

Imo if a Theist, lets say a Christian, wishes to use the cosmological argument, he would then be intellectually honest doing it if (and only if) he is confident that, if granted the argument of a deity, he could then make a solid case for the deity being the one that he actually hold belief as being true.

In short, having a way to jump from Deism to Theism.

I never before saw a theist who would like to debate and use arguments for other stances without having a very obvious underlying purpose of actually supporting his own belief.

If you defy both of those usual kinds of experiences I had before I own you an apology.

But still makes little sense to me why someone like that would a theist in the first place.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
-P.C. Hodgell - Seeker’s Mask - Kirien
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03-11-2016, 12:19 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
So I'll jump on the Stevil train for the purpose of this discussion and go ahead and claim that morals do not exist. At least not in the way that they are defined by Tomasia.

Morals exist in the same context that god exists, and that's in our imagination and within the context of our accepted social constructs.

It's all made up, but at least the concept of morals is based on empathy, whereas the concept of god is just based on what I can get you to believe so you'll join my agenda, which has to somewhat agree with the current social construct otherwise it won't seem empathetic, and therefore immoral. That's why there's such a great disconnect between different themes of theology even within the same denominations of Christianity.

Isn't God great and wonderful?

Or is he?

(that last question is multi-faceted)

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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03-11-2016, 02:58 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 04:20 PM)Velvet Wrote:  Even If we were to concede you that there's a being who is the source of a objective morality, that's necessarily NOT one kind of being that doesn't know you shouldn't punish finite crimes with infinite punishment.

Objective would mean "independent from any beings perception".
Gods morals are just as subjective as anyone elses, with the difference him being a different entity than humans are...if he existed at all. Big Grin
Gods morals are subjective, to god.

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03-11-2016, 03:04 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 04:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Just because I'm a theist, doesn't mean I'm particularly interested in persuading a bunch of atheists on the internet to become theist, which is just as much a fools errand.

Then why are you posting at all on this forum, in this thread and point out that our position to not believe in any god claim is wrong?

For statistical reasons? Because you are bored and killing time by posting here? Because you are trying to improve your grammar (which seems not to work so well *their* *they´re* *there* *an atheists*)?

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03-11-2016, 04:19 AM
Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 09:19 PM)Velvet Wrote:  I never before saw a theist who would like to debate and use arguments for other stances without having a very obvious underlying purpose of actually supporting his own belief.

If you defy both of those usual kinds of experiences I had before I own you an apology.

But still makes little sense to me why someone who would be like that would a theist in the first place.

A couple of things. Clarifying the meaning of something, doesn't equate to defending something. Correcting someone on Donald Trump foreign policy views, doesn't equate to defending his views.

And no my presence here isn't motivated by a desire to convert you, or justify my theistic beliefs to you. It's more out curiosity than anything else, and to explore my own assessments of atheist, and whether they are accurate. Like an atheists who assess theist as delusional, engaging theists to see if they actually are delusional or not, or if he's just calling theist delusional, out of a desire to insult them.

Imagine if you will a forum of 9/11 truthers, as an analogy. And a person who joins their forum, curious about their absurd views, how their minds got warped in such a way, the psychology behind their position, how these individuals gauge particular questions that would be conflicting to their positions, exploring their dissonance. This person is exploring his own particular curiosities about this group, and not participating to justify the official account he holds, and not for the sake of convincing truthers that they're wrong, a point he's likely to see as a fools errand.

I have a particular assessment of atheists developed over years of engaging with actual atheists, an assessment that I continually develop and explore, test and gauge for its veracity. I make a variety of predications, and see if they hold true.

So my main interest would be in exploring the accuracy of my assessment. Observing your behaviors, like I might a dogs, to gauge what's taking place behind the curtain.

I'm fully aware that my assessments may be entirely inaccurate as the result of my own personal biases, but the only way I'd ever know that, is by continually engaging the group I'm assessing.



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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-11-2016, 04:52 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(03-11-2016 04:19 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm fully aware that my assessments may be entirely inaccurate as the result of my own personal biases, but the only way I'd ever know that, is by continually engaging the group I'm assessing.

Too bad you're too busy projecting stereotypes and strawmen to ever actually engage with those who you are 'assessing'. Drinking Beverage

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03-11-2016, 04:57 AM
Why people need God for morality
(03-11-2016 02:58 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 04:20 PM)Velvet Wrote:  Even If we were to concede you that there's a being who is the source of a objective morality, that's necessarily NOT one kind of being that doesn't know you shouldn't punish finite crimes with infinite punishment.

Objective would mean "independent from any beings perception".

If we are designed with particular goals and aims in mind, such as inherent moral purpose. This would exist independent of our own perception, the same way we would say of rules and goal in the software of a robot. The rules and goals would be part of his essential nature.


It's either true or false that such rules and goals are a part of his software, or in other words it either objectively true, or not.

This can be said in regards to common beliefs about human moral responsibilities and duties, and the teleological assumptions underlying them. Either such duties and responsibilities exist or they don't.







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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-11-2016, 04:58 AM
Why people need God for morality
(03-11-2016 04:57 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-11-2016 02:58 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Objective would mean "independent from any beings perception".

If we are designed with particular goals and aims in mind, such as inherent moral purpose. This would exist independent of our own perception, the same way we would say of rules and goal in the software of a robot. The rules and goals would be part of his essential nature, regardless if the robot is perceptive of these goals and rules.


It's either true or false that such rules and goals are a part of his software, or in other words it either objectively true, or not.

This can be said in regards to common beliefs about human moral responsibilities and duties, and the teleological assumptions underlying them. Either such duties and responsibilities exist or they don't.







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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