Why people need God for morality
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03-11-2016, 05:39 AM
Why people need God for morality
(03-11-2016 04:52 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Too bad you're too busy projecting stereotypes and strawmen to ever actually engage with those who you are 'assessing'. Drinking Beverage

No I do as much engaging as possible, and try and hear them out, give them ample opportunity to respond, make note of those responses. Revise my asseememts if need be. I do as much as I possibly can with the resources afforded to me.

Those assessments are not particularly flattering, so I don't expect that you'd agree with them, but that's beside the point.






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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-11-2016, 05:41 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(03-11-2016 05:39 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-11-2016 04:52 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Too bad you're too busy projecting stereotypes and strawmen to ever actually engage with those who you are 'assessing'. Drinking Beverage

No I do as much engaging as possible, and try and hear them out, give them ample opportunity to respond, make note of those responses. Revise my asseememts if need be. I do as much as I possibly can with the resources afforded to me.

Those assessments are not particularly flattering, so I don't expect that you'd agree with them, but that's beside the point.

Sweet baby Jesus, you think that's what you are doing? No wonder you don't have a fucking clue...

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03-11-2016, 05:46 AM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2016 06:00 AM by Velvet.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
(03-11-2016 04:19 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And no my presence here isn't motivated by a desire to convert you, or justify my theistic beliefs to you. It's more out curiosity than anything else, and to explore my own assessments of atheist, and whether they are accurate. Like an atheists who assess theist as delusional, engaging theists to see if they actually are delusional or not, or if he's just calling theist delusional, out of a desire to insult them.

You seem to have misunderstood me once again, I'm not sure why we are have so many comunication issues, what all theists that I've meet before were trying was not to convert or justify their beliefs to me, but to themselves. They were trying (or at least it looked like they were in a quite obvious way) to correct their cognitive dissonance.

I also don't refer to theists as delusional to insult them, pretty much the opposite, I do that because I respect too much their intellect to suppose they would rationally believe what they are believing if they weren't lost in a miasma of deception and indocrination, so its flattering to think of their apparent position as a delusion, instead of an actual position they would otherwise (if not deluded) represent.

Dare I ask what would be those not particularly flattering assessments?

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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03-11-2016, 06:26 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(03-11-2016 05:46 AM)Velvet Wrote:  You seem to have misunderstood me once again, I'm not sure why we are have so many comunication issues, what all theists that I've meet before were trying was not to convert or justify their beliefs to me, but to themselves. They were trying (or at least it looked like they were in a quite obvious way) to correct their cognitive dissonance.

No, I have no real need to continually justify that God exists to myself, anymore so than I have a need to continually justify the sun exists. At this point in my life, I have very few doubts or insecurities about this. While many theists may harbor their own sets of insecurities regarding their belief in the existence of God, I don't, just like I don't harbor insecurities about my wife's fidelity, or existence of the tree in the yard.

I know that may be hard for you to believe, but it's true, and your belief otherwise is just a false projection. Secondly, in order for cognitive dissonance to exist, or least observed to be present, there would have to be a competing view, factors in favor of a competing position, that the beliefs you strongly hold are distorting, leaving you incapable of understanding. Far as I'm concerned, surveying this vast forum, there doesn't seem to be any particular competing view to my theistic beliefs, at least not one anyone would care to advocate for or defend. In fact among the atheists here, their position is merely a lack of a position, a lack of an alternative belief, a lack of a burden of proof, etc..

It would be interesting to see you actually gauge the veracity of your claim regarding cognitive dissonance, whether it's true or not, or merely a projection of your own making.

Quote:I also don't refer to theists as delusional to insult them, pretty much the opposite, I do that because I respect too much their intelect to suppose they would rationally believe what they are believing if they weren't lost in a miasma of deception and indocrination, so its flattering to think of their apparent position as a delusion, instead of an actual position they would otherwise (if not deluded) represent.

Dare I ask would be those not particularly flattering assessments?

They're not particularly flattering, just like, my assessment of atheists as confused is not particularly flattering. But as you say, I don't refer to you as confused to insult you, but because I honestly believe atheists are.

My own self-assement, is that if my theistic beliefs are wrong, if God doesn't exist, this would merely be a series of mistaken beliefs that I held, and not a delusion. Like folks who assumed the world was flat a few thousands year ago, as a result of their immediate perception were mistaken, and not delusional.

While I don't find portraying me as delusional as flattering, I'm not particularly offended by it, it tends to pique my interest. I like to hear the accuser actually engage their view here, gauge whether or not it's matter of a delusion, or a series of mistaken beliefs. When they appear as if they never attempted to actually think this view of there's through, then I tend to see their use of delusional, as more for sake of leveling an insult than anything else.

Far as I'm concerned religious views are at the very least intuitively true, hence the dominance and receptiveness to such beliefs, even if they are actually false. If I were to come into this world void of any particular religious influence, this world, this life would appear entirely purposeful, a part of some unknown order, a story whose meaning I'm out to discover, because here I am a creature seeking to know why he is here, what's the meaning of all this, what do I live for, desiring to be good, seeking truth, etc...

These assumptions may be false, but intuitively led to. But just because in the end they may be false doesn't mean they're delusional.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-11-2016, 06:44 AM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2016 06:55 AM by Velvet.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
(03-11-2016 05:46 AM)Velvet Wrote:  You seem to have misunderstood me once again, I'm not sure why we are have so many comunication issues, what all theists that I've meet before were trying was not to convert or justify their beliefs to me, but to themselves.

I hope this sorted out yet another problem that we had on our comunication.

Give me some time to address the rest.

EDIT: I'm actually gonna need a lot of time as I have some work to do before I can respond.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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03-11-2016, 07:02 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(03-11-2016 06:26 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Far as I'm concerned religious views are at the very least intuitively true, hence the dominance and receptiveness to such beliefs, even if they are actually false. If I were to come into this world void of any particular religious influence, this world, this life would appear entirely purposeful, a part of some unknown order, a story whose meaning I'm out to discover, because here I am a creature seeking to know why he is here, what's the meaning of all this, what do I live for, desiring to be good, seeking truth, etc...

These assumptions may be false, but intuitively led to. But just because in the end they may be false doesn't mean they're delusional.

Fundamental Reality has been proven to be NOT what human intuition leads one to.
So .... your intuition leads you, and you are yet another believer who doesn't need faith.
Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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03-11-2016, 07:45 AM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2016 07:52 AM by Velvet.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
(03-11-2016 06:26 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Secondly, in order for cognitive dissonance to exist, or least observed to be present, there would have to be a competing view, factors in favor of a competing position, that the beliefs you strongly hold are distorting, leaving you incapable of understanding. Far as I'm concerned, surveying this vast forum, there doesn't seem to be any particular competing view to my theistic beliefs, at least not one anyone would care to advocate for or defend. In fact among the atheists here, their position is merely a lack of a position, a lack of an alternative belief, a lack of a burden of proof, etc..

Not actually leaving you incapable of understanding, but instead, uncomfortable with your current understanding, making you want to confirm or readjust your view with reality.

What you said wouldn't reflect my view, even trying to be as unbiased as I can, with the mechanisms on my disposal, I still don't find myself being neutral in regard to the existence of Yahweh in particular, and even if a case for Yahweh's non-existence might be rhetorically challenging to make (definitely harder than just staying comfortably on the default stance) I would still assume and debate my belief in Yahweh's non-existence (if there's any need for that).

That's the particular reason why I find fitting to refer on the belief in Yahweh existence as a delusion, because I do acknowledge not only absence of evidence but overwhelming evidence for the absence of Yahweh (in particular), the contact with this evidence is also what would provoke the cognitive dissonance.

Quote:My own self-assement, is that if my theistic beliefs are wrong, if God doesn't exist, this would merely be a series of mistaken beliefs that I held, and not a delusion.

When they appear as if they never attempted to actually think this view of there's through, then I tend to see their use of delusional, as more for sake of leveling an insult than anything else.

It would be a delusion if you hold the belief despite superior evidence to the contrary.

Yes, if one calls you deluded, and refuses and coward himself, withdrawing to the safeness of the default stance whenever you ask for the evidence that would imply your belief being a delusion, then its fair that you regard it as an insult, and if not by ignorance then by dishonesty.

Calling someone a deluded is to indirectly make a claim that there's superior evidence contrary to the belief that person holds (his delusion).

That's my opinion and most atheists will disagree with it, stating they can (somehow) be honest, call you a deluded, and stay in default position, all at the same time, unfortunately I can't expand on why a lot of atheists think like that, as it never made sense to me.

Quote:Far as I'm concerned religious views are at the very least intuitively true, hence the dominance and receptiveness to such beliefs, even if they are actually false.

As far as I'm concerned religious views are the revenant of some evolutionary strategy for survival regarding how to deal with the unknown, and thats why it would be intuitively true, because the paleolithic savannah probably showed itself not a good place to experiment with the unknown.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
-P.C. Hodgell - Seeker’s Mask - Kirien
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03-11-2016, 08:47 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 05:18 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 04:51 PM)Dark Wanderer Wrote:  I'm always confused, in some way or another. What's wrong with that? Are you saying that you have all the answers? That must be nice.

Just because I see you as confused, doesn't mean that I believe it's wrong for you to be confused. I wouldn't know how to make you any less confused. It's not even evident to me that you desire to be anything other than confused.

That this confusion is often worn as a badge of an honor, a final resting place, than a state to be dug out of. You'll explain the world away to preserve it. Driven out of a desire to believe nothing, rather than something.

So, we don't believe in God because we don't want to believe in anything? Seems the reverse is true for believers. I've heard the argument countless times - "you gotta believe in something, why not God?". Just because you start with what you want to believe, then try to find anything that seems to support it, doesn't means everyone should. It also isn't a very effective way of finding truth (unless, as so many often do, you redefine the word to "whatever i feel is right).
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03-11-2016, 08:50 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 06:13 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 06:06 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  I believe lots of things, for example I believe you're a stupid little cunt who CAN'T STOP TELLING OTHER PEOPLE WHAT THEY THINK, no matter how many times you get called out on it.

Not sure why you're so worked up by what I've said here, but okay.

Because it's condescending?
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03-11-2016, 09:12 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 08:46 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 08:36 PM)Impulse Wrote:  What does this "generic god" say about morality - what is right and what is wrong?

That you ought to do what is right.

Quote:Before you answer, the next question is "how do you know this and how do you know it comes from a god"?

Because you can't get an ought from an is without one.

Sure you can! As long as you don't start from a conclusion and work backwards.
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