Why people need God for morality
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06-11-2016, 08:36 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
Tomasia - I am not sure why you think all brains operate the same. People do not get their brains to operate differently. They simply are different, just like our faces are different. Some areas of the brain function differently. Some areas are smaller. Some are more developed. We may have lots of similar functionality from brain to brain that allows most of us to see the same shape of things even if we may not see the same color.

We may hear the same sound and appreciate it differently. Some of us may have delusions, imagining that the sun in the sky is conscious and watches over us.

Our brains are far from the same.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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06-11-2016, 08:46 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(06-11-2016 08:36 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Tomasia - I am not sure why you think all brains operate the same. People do not get their brains to operate differently. They simply are different, just like our faces are different. Some areas of the brain function differently. Some areas are smaller. Some are more developed. We may have lots of similar functionality from brain to brain that allows most of us to see the same shape of things even if we may not see the same color.

We may hear the same sound and appreciate it differently. Some of us may have delusions, imagining that the sun in the sky is conscious and watches over us.

Our brains are far from the same.

I don't see anything to particularly disagree with you here, and I agree strongly with the bolded part.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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06-11-2016, 08:51 AM (This post was last modified: 06-11-2016 09:14 AM by Velvet.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
Quote:Clearly there is, hence the our brains proclivity of cognitive dissonance, biases, scapegoating, etc…. Now I’m using deception a bit more loosely, akin to believing falsehoods here, and whether or not someone intentionally lied to you or not, is not particularly important.

You can easily imagine any number of scenarios is which falsehood might contribute to fitness. Such a falsehood getting you to feel content, and satisfied, and insuring your overall emotional well being in that community. Perhaps a falsehood can lead to solidarity in a community, need achieve certain goals. Such as motivating your troops in war, to see your enemy in the most grotesque terms possible, true or not.

Evolution doesn’t think in terms of truth and falsehoods, it thinks terms of survival and reproduction, and has created factors, that when falsehoods are needed, the brain is receptive to such falsehood, in the form of cognitive dissonance, and deep biases, which are clear obstacles to deciphering truth, produced by our evolutionary backgrounds.

Cognitive Dissonance is completely different thing from what you seem to think it is, its motivation is to REDUCE the dissonance, its the process of seeking consistency between the expectations and the reality, its not a process to allow us deceive ourselves (even if is sometimes what end up doing with it, you are twisting the evolutionary basis for it) which is freaking obviously to correct our expectations so we don't get eaten by a tiger.

You are not using the term deception more loosely, you are talking about a completely different thing.

Even in the case that we can ''imagine any number of scenarios in which falsehoods might contribute'' those are not any scenarios which would happen to our ancestors who were way below us in the maslow's pyramid, so they couldn't be base for any evolutionary trace.

The natural selection doesn't necessarily benefits the one who has more access to reality than those who don't, it is about survival and reproduction, but those who have better access to reality can survive better than those who don't.

Quote:feel content, and satisfied, and insuring your overall emotional well being
Evolution isn't about felling content and satisfied and emotional well being, its about not being eaten by a tiger.

Quote:Let’s ask another set of questions, is scientific thinking a purely human thing? Or are other non-human animals capable of thinking scientifically? Do you think that all humans beings think scientifically? Why not? What so different about their brains and those who think scientifically?

I don't know. I don't know, No I don't think they do, I don't know and I suspect neither does you, we might wanna ask a neuroscientist instead of just assuming whatever thing you would like to assume.

Quote:I’m more interested in how this things work given the neurochemical makeup of brains, and if some subset of people found a means to get their brains to operate differently than others brains, if so then I want to hear more about this miracle.

1) Ask a neuroscientist, do not assume whatever you feel like.
2) Brains operating differently wouldn't be a miracle.

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06-11-2016, 08:59 AM (This post was last modified: 06-11-2016 09:09 AM by Velvet.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
(06-11-2016 08:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-11-2016 08:36 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Tomasia - I am not sure why you think all brains operate the same. People do not get their brains to operate differently. They simply are different, just like our faces are different. Some areas of the brain function differently. Some areas are smaller. Some are more developed=.

Our brains are far from the same.

I don't see anything to particularly disagree with you here, and I agree strongly with the bolded part.

If you engage in this level of dishonesty again I will be forced to disregard you as a critical thinker.

EDIT: Also, so you think that we can't train or study to get ourselves better on anything in regard to the brain?

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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06-11-2016, 09:22 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(06-11-2016 08:51 AM)Velvet Wrote:  Cognitive Dissonance is completely different thing from what you seem to think it is, its motivation is to REDUCE the dissonance, its the process of seeking consistency between the expectations and the reality, its not a process to allow us deceive ourselves (even if is sometimes what end up doing with it, you are twisting the evolutionary basis for it) which is freaking obviously to correct our expectations so we don't get eaten by a tiger.

It would be the exact opposite, it would be means of avoiding consistency. You speak of cognitive dissonance as if it’s a good thing, as in aid in deciphering what’s true, rather than an impairment when it appears.

When some theists deal with truths about the world, that are in conflict with a variety of their religious beliefs, cognitive dissonance appears, not as aide to decipher what’s actually true, but to assist in preserving their deeply held false beliefs in light of the true but conflicting scenario here. If cognitive dissonance didn’t exist here, the the individual would be far more receptive to acknowledge their previous views are wrong.

If you think it’s about seeking consistency between expectations and reality, would you say that’s exactly what its doing in the case of such theists? What consistency is coming about here, between their expectation and reality, when it serve to preserve their false view points?

Quote:The natural selection doesn't necessarily benefits the one who has more access to reality than those who don't, it is about survival and reproduction, but those who have better access to reality can survive better than those who don't.

No, those who are resilient to a wider variety of different environmental pressures, who can reproduce and live in a variety of changing landscapes, and threats, are able to better survive than those who don’t, regardless if they are able to grasp reality better than others.

Given that human history is predominately plagued by views of reality that you likely deem as false, i.e religious superstitious view of reality, beliefs in spirits, magic, etc… it doesn’t seem that evolution favored those who perceived reality more accurately. And given that it’s relatively impossible to get people to abandon these deeply held false beliefs, that human being tend to be so resistent to abandoning their valued false beliefs, your basic assumptions here seem to be wrong.

Quote:I don't know. I don't know, No I don't think they do, I don't know and I suspect neither does you, we might wanna ask a neuroscientist instead of just assuming whatever thing you would like to assume.

If you can’t even begin to reconcile your view of skeptical, rational, scientific thinking, etc.. with how we know the brain works, both human and animal, with how we know evolution works, etc.., you should likely start to consider that your beliefs are false. Those enlightenment proponents of such views you admire, were ignorant of these very things, held to dualistic views of the mind presented by Descartes types, their ignorance at the time is understandable, and excusable. While your likely views that are irreconcilable to a Darwinian perspective here are without excuse.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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06-11-2016, 09:43 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(06-11-2016 08:59 AM)Velvet Wrote:  EDIT: Also, so you think that we can't train or study to get ourselves better on anything in regard to the brain?

It depends on what you mean by this.

I can teach my dog a variety of tricks, to potty outside only, to stay, to sit, perform agility tricks, perhaps increase the complexity of such tricks as we go along, a good regiment will assist in improving his overall focus and discipline here.

So in such an instance it would be fair for me to say that through training his overall mental shape was improved. The brain from what I understand is much a like a muscle in this regard.

If you want to express views on how the human brain improves through training and study, you should consider how that would translate into how our relatives, other non-human animals, who we share the bulk of our evolutionary history with, operate, train and improve. Such thinking will likely help rid of us some false assumptions about how we think our thoughts work.

In regards to evolution, the concern is not our beliefs, or views, but rather actions and behaviors, and their impact on actions and behaviors that evolution would be concerned with. With this in mind, it's likely easier to see why evolution isn't really concerned with whether you believe true things or not, but whatever will keep you moving, performing actions and behaviors beneficial to survival and reproduction.

From my dog, getting him to behave and act certain ways, is matter of manipulating his reward center, in the direction of those behaviors and actions. I don't think human being are entirely off from the same predicament, in regards to their own thoughts and behaviors. You can think of reputation points, and likes as dog treats, insuring your behavior and views fall along a certain line.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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06-11-2016, 09:50 AM (This post was last modified: 06-11-2016 10:56 AM by Velvet.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
(06-11-2016 09:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It would be the exact opposite, it would be means of avoiding consistency. You speak of cognitive dissonance as if it’s a good thing, as in aid in deciphering what’s true, rather than an impairment when it appears.

When some theists deal with truths about the world, that are in conflict with a variety of their religious beliefs, cognitive dissonance appears, not as aide to decipher what’s actually true, but to assist in preserving their deeply held false beliefs in light of the true but conflicting scenario here. If cognitive dissonance didn’t exist here, the the individual would be far more receptive to acknowledge their previous views are wrong.

If you think it’s about seeking consistency between expectations and reality, would you say that’s exactly what its doing in the case of such theists? What consistency is coming about here, between their expectation and reality, when it serve to preserve their false view points?

http://skepdic.com/cognitivedissonance.html

Cognitive dissonance has been called "the mind controller's best friend" (Levine 2003: 202). Yet, a cursory examination of cognitive dissonance reveals that it is not the dissonance, but how people deal with it, that would be of interest to someone trying to control others when the evidence seems against them.

Quote:No, those who are resilient to a wider variety of different environmental pressures, who can reproduce and live in a variety of changing landscapes, and threats, are able to better survive than those who don’t, regardless if they are able to grasp reality better than others.

Being resilient and being able to reproduce in a variety of changing landscapes and threats includes your ability to grasp reality, otherwise you won't grasp any of those threats because you can't grasp reality.

You need to grasp reality well otherwise tigers and orchid mantises will kill you and you will not be reproducing, this is a fact, just accept it.

Quote:Given that human history is predominately plagued by views of reality that you likely deem as false, i.e religious superstitious view of reality, beliefs in spirits, magic, etc… it doesn’t seem that evolution favored those who perceived reality more accurately. And given that it’s relatively impossible to get people to abandon these deeply held false beliefs, that human being tend to be so resistent to abandoning their valued false beliefs, your basic assumptions here seem to be wrong.

Evolution favored those who could avoid being eaten by a tiger or a orchid mantis despite their blending very well with their habitats, I won't drop this until you accept and acknowledge this fact.

If we are alive to invent all sorts of religions is ONLY BECAUSE we could avoid being eaten by tigers.

Quote:If you can’t even begin to reconcile your view of skeptical, rational, scientific thinking, etc.. with how we know the brain works, both human and animal, with how we know evolution works, etc.., you should likely start to consider that your beliefs are false. Those enlightenment proponents of such views you admire, were ignorant of these very things, held to dualistic views of the mind presented by Descartes types, their ignorance at the time is understandable, and excusable. While your likely views that are irreconcilable to a Darwinian perspective here are without excuse.

I don't see any conflict between any of those things, aside from those you are making up on a very clumsily fashion who are not real conflicts on any sense and actually support those views.

I consider my beliefs as possibly being false at all times.

This is exactly why I'm sure they are unlikely to be false right now, they showed as reliable, my aircraft all still flying.

My views are not irreconcilable with a Darwinian perspective, your ignorance on both my views AND Darwinian perspective is what makes you see them like that.

1: Evolution favors those who can survive threats and environment and reproduce.
2: Threats use exploitation of failures senses and reasoning as strategy.
3: Having better senses and reasoning negates some of those failures.
Conclusion: Evolution favors having better senses and reasoning.

No contradiction.

Cognitive dissonance being a way to improve internal consistency of beliefs with reality fits perfectly, and even if its evolutionary origins were not actually those, you still can't, only based on how theist approach the cognitive dissonance and our biases make your case for no evolutionary benefit for having a better grasp of reality.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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06-11-2016, 10:38 AM (This post was last modified: 06-11-2016 10:45 AM by Velvet.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
Here is a fruit fly who agrees with you, natural selection doesn't give a shit for what is true or what is not, and we have no evolutionary basis for having a better grasp of reality:

[Image: file4bjkzj.jpg]

...
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...
...
...
...
...
[Image: Ignorant%20Fruit%20Fly%20In%20Orchid%20Mantis.jpg]

I rest my case.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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06-11-2016, 01:43 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(06-11-2016 09:50 AM)Velvet Wrote:  Being resilient and being able to reproduce in a variety of changing landscapes and threats includes your ability to grasp reality, otherwise you won't grasp any of those threats because you can't grasp reality.

The Tardigrade is perhaps one of the most resilient animals on the planet, yet doesn’t possess much of an ability to grasp reality.

It regards to evolution it’s not grasping reality that it’s concerned with, it’s navigating reality here, as it benefits survival and reproduction To move from point A to point B, and not particularly being cognizant of the fact that you’re moving from point A to point B, or understand point A and point B.

And even a cursory examination of humanity, of human history, reveals that their fundamentals beliefs regarding reality, are false, at least according to atheists, ascribing spiritual properties, etc… So much for evolution concerning itself with creatures able to grasp the truth here.

Quote:You need to grasp reality well otherwise tigers and orchid mantises will kill you and you will not be reproducing, this is a fact, just accept it.

Not so much grasping reality, but moving away from threats. Negativity bias, leads human creatures to interpret the sound of wind, as a tiger moving in the grass, and to run away from it. Grasping the reality here, to confirm whether the sound was the wind or an actual predator, would likely be costly. So the shortcut negativity bias produces is more beneficial.

You ever see the youtube videos of cats running off at the sight of seeing cucumbers? Clearly they’re not grasping the item in front of them as harmless inmate object, but acting upon an evolutionary short cut that perceives such shaped objects as a threat. Better to run than to mistaken a snake for a cucumber, not necessarily grasping the reality here.

There are objects in the external reality that pose as threats to different animals, including humans, evolution insures that we feel fear when we encounter, or believe we encounter such threats, and that our instinct to run away is triggered as result of that fear. Moving from A to point B, just as every other animal, bacteria etc… does, whether we are aware of this movement or not.

Quote:If we are alive to invent all sorts of religions is ONLY BECAUSE we could avoid being eaten by tigers.

We avoid being eating by tigers by being entirely terrified by them, like geese.

Quote:My views are not irreconcilable with a Darwinian perspective, your ignorance on both my views AND Darwinian perspective is what makes you see them like that.

Then reconcile them. Rather than responding as your earlier did with the “I don't know. I don't know, No I don't think they do, I don't know and I suspect neither does you, we might wanna ask a neuroscientist instead of just assuming whatever thing you would like to assume.”

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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06-11-2016, 03:33 PM (This post was last modified: 06-11-2016 03:36 PM by Velvet.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
If only this fly could grasp reality a bit better, I'm certainly glad it can't tho, munch, munch, munch.

[Image: Ignorant%20Fruit%20Fly%20In%20Orchid%20Mantis.jpg]

Quote:1: Evolution favors those who can survive threats and environment and reproduce.
2: Threats use exploitation of failures senses and reasoning as strategy.
3: Having better senses and reasoning negates some of those failures.
Conclusion: Evolution favors having better senses and reasoning.

No contradiction.

Cognitive dissonance being a way to improve internal consistency of beliefs with reality fits perfectly, and even if its evolutionary origins were not actually those, you still can't, only based on how theist approach the cognitive dissonance and our biases make your case for no evolutionary benefit for having a better grasp of reality.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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