Why people need God for morality
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07-11-2016, 07:30 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(07-11-2016 07:17 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-11-2016 08:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  I'm not arguing with you - I'm telling you what the definition is. You don't appear to understand it.


So you can't answer whether or not you've ever suffered from cognitive dissonance?

Why do you post annoyingly offensive shit like that?
My post had nothing to do with that and your question pre-supposes that it did. Facepalm
You need to stop doing that. But you won't, will you. Dodgy

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07-11-2016, 07:39 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(06-11-2016 11:38 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(06-11-2016 05:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Have you personally ever experienced cognitive dissonance?

Yes, it is a very enjoyable podcast, and highly recommended.

[Image: CognitiveDissonanceLogo-250x250.jpg]

No, honestly have you ever experienced cognitive dissonance? Or do you think you've managed to avoid that tension? Because I'm curious if your understanding of cognitive dissonance stems from what you read about it, but never personally experienced yourself.

(06-11-2016 05:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  They can be. Those who are usually do things to try and harmonize the discrepancy, in an effort to mitigate or lessen the dissonance.

I don't think that's the case at all, if we were to take any interaction were cognitive dissonance is observed, the individual is far more likely in my experience to see his views as consistent. Creationist don't tend to see their views as inconsistent with a variety of facts, even though everybody else observes they are.

Quote:
Quote:Take someone who is virulently anti-gay, and for religious reasons. Sometimes those people discover that those they love and hold dear, people they know very well, are gay. Now they have a problem, because now their demonization of gay people as a whole comes crashing into their own very real experience with people they love and care for, and who also happen to be gay.

Some people double down on the hate. This is when you get really hurtful shit like parents disowning their children or forcing them into 'conversion therapy'. Others conversely give up on the hate rhetoric, acknowledging that they were wrong in their earlier beliefs, and maintain their ties to their friends and family.

I don't see why you believe this situation would entail cognitive dissonance. Let's say you have a best friend who you love, and he ends up sleeping with your wife. If you now start to despise him, and disown him, it doesn't seem that cognitive dissonance has much to do with it. The people who disown their children for being gay likely knew before hand, that they would disown their children for being gay. Just like you might know you'd disown your friend for sleeping with your wife before hand.

Or take a another situation where man believes that he would disown definitely disown his wife for infidelity, but then upon finding out that his wife was unfaithful, he's conflicted, on whether he should forgive her or not. Even hear it doesn't seem to be the case that we're speaking of cognitive dissonance.

Maybe we should stick with less ambiguous scenarios. Take a creationist, who your arguing with about the age of the earth or evolution, would you acknowledge that he is suffering from cognitive dissonance, when dealing with conflicting ideas. And that cognitive dissonance is part of the reason why he's not able to recognize or process the truth here.

Psychologist tend to place cognitive dissonance in the treacherous trio, along with confirmation bias, and motivated reasoning, as to why people are often incapable of seeing their own position as wrong.

Quote:How often do you address your own mistakes? Drinking Beverage

Whenever I became aware or agree that I've made them.

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07-11-2016, 07:42 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(07-11-2016 07:30 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-11-2016 07:17 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  So you can't answer whether or not you've ever suffered from cognitive dissonance?

Why do you post annoyingly offensive shit like that?
My post had nothing to do with that and your question pre-supposes that it did. Facepalm
You need to stop doing that. But you won't, will you. Dodgy

Because I'm curious to hear your actual answer.

I would like to know as I indicated to Evolutionkill, whether when you speak of cognitive dissonance you're primarily speaking about what you read about it, but never had any personal experience with the psychological phenomenon itself?

Whether you're only familiar with other peoples descriptions of it, but not that actual feeling of the tension it creates?

Not sure why this is offensive.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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07-11-2016, 08:01 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(07-11-2016 07:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(07-11-2016 07:30 AM)Chas Wrote:  Why do you post annoyingly offensive shit like that?
My post had nothing to do with that and your question pre-supposes that it did. Facepalm
You need to stop doing that. But you won't, will you. Dodgy

Because I'm curious to hear your actual answer.

I would like to know as I indicated to Evolutionkill, whether when you speak of cognitive dissonance you're primarily speaking about what you read about it, but never had any personal experience with the psychological phenomenon itself?

Whether you're only familiar with other peoples descriptions of it, but not that actual feeling of the tension it creates?

Yes, I am familiar with the feeling. So?

Quote:Not sure why this is offensive.

What is offensive is your phrasing that implies I can't answer it coupled with the fact that you did not ask me the question in the first place.
That you don't see that is indicative of your general inability to have discussions that don't end up annoying everyone.

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07-11-2016, 08:33 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(07-11-2016 08:01 AM)Chas Wrote:  What is offensive is your phrasing that implies I can't answer it coupled with the fact that you did not ask me the question in the first place.

I asked you specifically: "Have you personally ever experienced cognitive dissonance?"

So I clearly did ask you the question earlier.

Quote:Yes, I am familiar with the feeling. So?

When you suffered cognitive dissonance personally, where you aware at the time that you were holding two contradictory positions, that your beliefs were inconsistent?

And what where these inconsistent beliefs you were holding at the time?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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07-11-2016, 08:41 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(07-11-2016 08:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(07-11-2016 08:01 AM)Chas Wrote:  What is offensive is your phrasing that implies I can't answer it coupled with the fact that you did not ask me the question in the first place.

I asked you specifically: "Have you personally ever experienced cognitive dissonance?"

So I clearly did ask you the question earlier.

Only after I pointed out your error to which you did not respond. The discussion cannot proceed without your response.

Quote:
Quote:Yes, I am familiar with the feeling. So?

When you suffered cognitive dissonance personally, where you aware at the time that you were holding two contradictory positions, that your beliefs were inconsistent?

And what where these inconsistent beliefs you were holding at the time?

I am not interested in having that discussion with you.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-11-2016, 09:09 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(07-11-2016 08:41 AM)Chas Wrote:  Only after I pointed out your error to which you did not respond. The discussion cannot proceed without your response.

I'm not sure which point you're referring to, but reading back your post I'm guessing it was the definition you offered: "Cognitive dissonance is the state of having inconsistent thought and beliefs." Which is not entirely accurate.

Cognitive dissonance is the "tension" experienced by holding contradictory/inconsistent positions. It's not merely just holding contradictory positions, but the level of mental discomfort, or stress created by it.

And the point I've made repeatedly here, is that this tension, is a hurdle, an impediment to uncovering what's true. You'll have an easier time recognizing what's true when cognitive dissonance is not a factor, rather then when it is.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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07-11-2016, 09:31 AM (This post was last modified: 07-11-2016 09:54 AM by Velvet.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
(07-11-2016 09:09 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And the point I've made repeatedly here, is that this tension, is a hurdle, an impediment to uncovering what's true. You'll have an easier time recognizing what's true when cognitive dissonance is not a factor, rather then when it is.

And the counterpoint I've made several times to your point is that this tension and discomfort is exactly the "force" that compels a person to seek consistency among reality and his beliefs, not an impediment, is a discomfort that demands you do something about it, with its absence you would have nothing compelling you to seek for the consistency.

What a person chooses to do achieve this consistency in order to alleviate the tension does not concern the cognitive dissonance.

And it may be a reevaluation of beliefs in order to make it consistent with the new information received.

Or the opposite, a twist or even complete denial of the new information in order to make the belief seemingly not harmed by the new information, protecting the belief and devaluating the new information.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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07-11-2016, 10:01 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(07-11-2016 09:31 AM)Velvet Wrote:  And the counterpoint I've made several times to your point is that this tension and discomfort is exactly the "force" that compels a person to seek consistency among reality and his beliefs, not an impediment.

Seeking consistency in regards to one's belief, doesn't equate to seeking consistency with reality. False beliefs, can have their own internal consistency.

At no point when arguing with a person against their false position, would we be inclined to wish that cognitive dissonance was present, to assist us in getting him to acknowledge whats true.

In fact if cognitive dissonance wasn't present, it would be as easy to get an individuals to recognize their view was mistaken, like when correcting a students wrong answer to a mathematic equation.


Quote:What a person chooses to do achieve this consistency and therefore alleviate the tension does not concern the cognitive dissonance.

And that doesn't change the fact that this tension, is a road block, and hurdle to cross when it comes to resolving what's true or not. How one may resolve that tension in the end, doesn't negate the fact that it is a hurdle in this regard. The clearest way to drive the point home to you, as that it would be a lot easier to convince someone that their position is wrong, when cognitive dissonance isn't present.

It seems that cognitive dissonance is present, in this argument about cognitive dissonance, lol.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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07-11-2016, 10:16 AM (This post was last modified: 07-11-2016 10:41 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
(07-11-2016 07:39 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-11-2016 11:38 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Yes, it is a very enjoyable podcast, and highly recommended.
No, honestly have you ever experienced cognitive dissonance? Or do you think you've managed to avoid that tension? Because I'm curious if your understanding of cognitive dissonance stems from what you read about it, but never personally experienced yourself.

Of course I have, it's a mark of self reflection and introspection. If I become aware of two or more contradictory belief that I hold, then I feel compelled to solve the contradiction. This may be done any number of different ways, including dropping or modifying one or more beliefs or reasoning out a way to resolve the apparent contradiction without changing either.

That you seem to seriously doubt this phenomena does not speak well for your own cognitive abilities. Not that it would have surprised anybody here who has ever interacted with you, that self awareness is not one of your strong suites.



(06-11-2016 05:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-11-2016 11:38 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  They can be. Those who are usually do things to try and harmonize the discrepancy, in an effort to mitigate or lessen the dissonance.
I don't think that's the case at all, if we were to take any interaction were cognitive dissonance is observed, the individual is far more likely in my experience to see his views as consistent. Creationist don't tend to see their views as inconsistent with a variety of facts, even though everybody else observes they are.

Because they're already mitigating their cognitive dissonance by any number of different means. Foremost is motivated reasoning. They have a preferred conclusion that they want to defend, and everything else gets judged though that bias. Inconvenient or contradictory facts can thus be ignored or pushed aside when one desires something else more than being factually accurate. Along those same line you can see people indulging in purposeful ignorance, where they refuse to even acknowledge or seek out information that may be disconfirming or otherwise challenges their established belief structure. The simplest of course is regular old denial. Sure, pure denial is not logical or rational; but if you value your established beliefs more than being rational or logical? It's a real easy step to take to make yourself feel better.

Skepticism and constant self evaluation are not easy or comfortable, which is why they are far less common than the alternative. The self reflective life takes work, not that I'd expect you to understand.



(06-11-2016 05:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-11-2016 11:38 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Some people double down on the hate. This is when you get really hurtful shit like parents disowning their children or forcing them into 'conversion therapy'. Others conversely give up on the hate rhetoric, acknowledging that they were wrong in their earlier beliefs, and maintain their ties to their friends and family.
I don't see why you believe this situation would entail cognitive dissonance. Let's say you have a best friend who you love, and he ends up sleeping with your wife. If you now start to despise him, and disown him, it doesn't seem that cognitive dissonance has much to do with it.

No, that's not even a remotely applicable analogy. You're comparing how people potentially deal with rationalizing the conclusions of mutually exclusive beliefs with the violation of trust. There is no cognitive dissonance to be had in your example. That is so stupid and utterly besides the point, I'm almost at a loss for words.

Then I remember who I'm talking too, and I stop being surprised.



(06-11-2016 05:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  The people who disown their children for being gay likely knew before hand, that they would disown their children for being gay. Just like you might know you'd disown your friend for sleeping with your wife before hand.

Do you really think that parents who are hateful enough to disown their children, that those children probably don't already know that? If you're growing up in such a household, being exposed to opinions of your parents and their hate fueled congregations, you're going to do everything in your power to hide that fact. This is what leads to horrible self-repression, clinical depression, and a statistically much higher rate of suicide among gay teenagers in very religiously antagonistic environments. This is what causes gay people in these environments to deny themselves their whole lives, and adopt that hatred as self loathing (provided that escape is not an option). This is what gets gay pastors to walk up to the pulpit and preach hatred on Sunday, then hire a gay prostitute on Monday; because they cannot express themselves otherwise, and they hate themselves for being themselves.



(06-11-2016 05:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Or take a another situation where man believes that he would disown definitely disown his wife for infidelity, but then upon finding out that his wife was unfaithful, he's conflicted, on whether he should forgive her or not. Even hear it doesn't seem to be the case that we're speaking of cognitive dissonance.

Because we're not dumbass. It's easily explainable, the belief that the wife would always be faithful was wrong. Full stop, that belief was wrong. That can hurt, cause pain, loss, rejection, and suffering. But there's no conflict there. The belief was evidently not true. There is, quite simple, no conflicting beliefs to cause dissonance.

Now if the husband were to deny what he knew? If he were to keep on pretending like his wife was faithful, even when he knew she wasn't? If he continued to smile, nod, and go about pretending like his trust had never been betrayed? Now that would cause cognitive dissonance, and it will continue to do so until he resolves the situation. Either by acknowledging that his wife isn't faithful, or otherwise rationalizing away or justifying her actions to himself. He'll need to square that peg eventually. Not resolving the situation will only increase the dissonance. Finding more evidence of the affair without acknowledging it's existence will only increase the dissonance.

For fuck's sake, this isn't a difficult concept to grasp.



(06-11-2016 05:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Maybe we should stick with less ambiguous scenarios. Take a creationist, who your arguing with about the age of the earth or evolution, would you acknowledge that he is suffering from cognitive dissonance, when dealing with conflicting ideas. And that cognitive dissonance is part of the reason why he's not able to recognize or process the truth here.

See above. Motivated reasoning, purposeful ignorance, personal bias, presupposition, and plain old denial are all tools used to defending preferred conclusions from refutation and conflicting information. If you're deluded or ignorant enough to never find a piece of conflicting information, you effectively sidestep the problem of cognitive dissonance (like every creationist who has never looked beyond AnswersInGenesis for information on evolution). The problem itself requires a certain level of ability for both self reflection and a desire to be factual accurate over feeling comfortable; grappling with cognitive dissonance can be painful, and not everyone sees it through to the end. Some will inevitably fall back to their previous belief structures rather than take on such painful tasks, and yet others seem completed to see it through to it's conclusion no matter how painful it may be.



(06-11-2016 05:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Psychologist tend to place cognitive dissonance in the treacherous trio, along with confirmation bias, and motivated reasoning, as to why people are often incapable of seeing their own position as wrong.

Because cognitive dissonance can be painful. Not being self critical is way fucking easier than the alternative. This should surprise absolutely nobody.



(06-11-2016 05:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(06-11-2016 11:38 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  How often do you address your own mistakes? Drinking Beverage
Whenever I became aware or agree that I've made them.

Therein lies the rub. Those who lack the self reflection to encounter genuine cognitive dissonance rarely grapple with their own faults honestly. Rationalization is an easy enough tool to absolve one of fault.

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