Why people need God for morality
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07-11-2016, 10:26 AM (This post was last modified: 07-11-2016 11:01 AM by Velvet.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
(07-11-2016 10:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Seeking consistency in regards to one's belief, doesn't equate to seeking consistency with reality. False beliefs, can have their own internal consistency.

At no point when arguing with a person against their false position, would we be inclined to wish that cognitive dissonance was present, to assist us in getting him to acknowledge whats true.

This has nothing to do with anything, I'm not inclined to wish to feel very anxious whenever I'm going to command my troops in front of a very important committee, but this doesn't tell us anything about why anxiety was important to our survival.

We needed a way to compel us to compare what is being presented to what we hold, and seek a consistency among those, we got that, THAT'S IT.

What you think that you or I feel when that process kicks is irrelevant and what will end up doing with it is also irrelevant.

Quote:In fact if cognitive dissonance wasn't present, it would be as easy to get an individuals to recognize their view was mistaken, like when correcting a students wrong answer to a mathematic equation.

And that doesn't change the fact that this tension, is a road block, and hurdle to cross when it comes to resolving what's true or not. How one may resolve that tension in the end, doesn't negate the fact that it is a hurdle in this regard. The clearest way to drive the point home to you, as that it would be a lot easier to convince someone that their position is wrong, when cognitive dissonance isn't present.

It seems that cognitive dissonance is present, in this argument about cognitive dissonance, lol.

It does not fucking matter, at all, what matters is the following:

1)We couldn't just accept everything new in terms of belief, because some of those would be wrong and easily end up killing us.

2)And we couldn't just hold our first belief indefinitely because it would also kill us, we wouldn't evolve our knowledge, we would be stucked.

3)We needed some form of resolving when the belief we holded conflicted with what was being provided, so we got a discomfort whenever those things where not resolved.

We got that.

That's it and that's all there is to it, its NOT a mechanism to protect the old beliefs, is a mechanism to resolve a conflict in a way that we (hopefully) don't get eaten by tigers so much as often and end up surviving, and the way for this to happen is to have our beliefs as consistent with reality as we are able, so when we notice the fucking stripes of the tiger, we then know that we should run the fuck away.

I seriously can't possibly imagine a way that you will manage to not understand it this time.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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07-11-2016, 10:43 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(07-11-2016 10:26 AM)Velvet Wrote:  I seriously can't possibly imagine a way that you will manage to not understand it this time.

Have a little faith, his incredulity of the patently obvious seems boundless at times. Drinking Beverage

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07-11-2016, 10:53 AM (This post was last modified: 07-11-2016 11:03 AM by Velvet.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
(07-11-2016 10:43 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(07-11-2016 10:26 AM)Velvet Wrote:  I seriously can't possibly imagine a way that you will manage to not understand it this time.

Have a little faith, his incredulity of the patently obvious seems boundless at times. Drinking Beverage

Thats was my magnum opus of explanation, if he doesn't accept it this time then I'll just accept that I've failed and I'm currently unable to provide anything else to help him understand.

I was sincerely hoping that I could make it, 3 pages ago, when I showed him the very subtle and understandably hard to grasp evolutionary advantage of not being eaten by a tiger.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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07-11-2016, 11:06 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(07-11-2016 10:53 AM)Velvet Wrote:  Thats was my magnum opus of explanation, if he doesn't accept it this time then I'll just accept that I've failed and I'm currently unable to provide anything else to help him understand.

He appears to me to be conflating CD and compartmentalization.

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07-11-2016, 02:00 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(07-11-2016 10:26 AM)Velvet Wrote:  It does not fucking matter, at all, what matters is the following:…..

This has nothing to do with anything,

lol, it has everything to do with the points I’ve raised about cognitive dissonance, the fact that you think it doesn’t, means that either you clearly didn’t understand the point I initially raised. Or you’re just trying to dodge the bullet on this one, rather than confronting the very thing I raised.

You have two people holding a similar false view, and if you trying to convince both of them that their position is wrong, and of truth of the matter, the person suffering from cognitive dissonance when considering the correct position, is much more difficult to correct, than the one absent of it. For the same reasons confirmation bias, etc.. that often exist in conjunction with cognitive dissonance, is an impediment to recognizing truth here. It’s why the easily observable examples of cognitive dissonance, are conspiracy theorist, creationist, and such.

I’ll take your “this has nothing to do with anything” response to indicate that you acknowledge this, but just don’t want to directly admit to this. Possibly because you’re dealing with your own confirmation bias, and cognitive dissonance. Clearly you seeking your own internal consistency, by refusing to process information that would quite easily undue your basic contentions here.

Quote:That's it and that's all there is to it, its NOT a mechanism to protect the old beliefs, is a mechanism to resolve a conflict in a way t

It’s a cognitive impediment to deciphering whats true, just like confirmation bias, and biases in general, regardless of whatever else you want to say about it.

And no absent of cognitive dissonance we wouldn’t just be accepting anything as true. In fact absent of cognitive dissonance we’re likely to be more considerate when it comes to competing positions. If one is impartial, neutral as you put it, in regards to competing positions, cognitive dissonance is not likely to exist, no tension to arise in defense or our deeply held positions.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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07-11-2016, 02:20 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(07-11-2016 02:00 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You have two people holding a similar false view, and if you trying to convince both of them that their position is wrong, and of truth of the matter, the person suffering from cognitive dissonance when considering the correct position, is much more difficult to correct, than the one absent of it. For the same reasons confirmation bias, etc.. that often exist in conjunction with cognitive dissonance, is an impediment to recognizing truth here. It’s why the easily observable examples of cognitive dissonance, are conspiracy theorist, creationist, and such.

You're so full of meaningless, bullshit hot air.
You should have been a preacher.
O wait. You are.
People don't "suffer" from cognitive dissonance. It's a phenomenon.
You have no clue what accompanies it or not. You blab away, thinking you sound intelligent. Someone must have told you, you are. You don't even know what cognitive dissonance is, much less how it affects anything. You're a fraud. Pure and simple. A fraud, full of hot air.

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07-11-2016, 02:24 PM (This post was last modified: 07-11-2016 02:31 PM by Velvet.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
(07-11-2016 02:00 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I’ll take your “this has nothing to do with anything” response to indicate that you acknowledge this, but just don’t want to directly admit to this.

And I will take all your refusals to acknowledge what its very clearly explained to you, alongside with all your passive-aggressive bullshit to indicate that you are an idiot.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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07-11-2016, 02:43 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(07-11-2016 10:16 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Of course I have, it's a mark of self reflection and introspection.

Is it? So when you see creationist, conspiracy theory nuts, etc.. suffering from cognitive dissonance, you see it as mark of self-reflection and introspection?

Since, you indicated you experienced cognitive distance, how would you describe the feeling of it?

Quote:They have a preferred conclusion that they want to defend, and everything else gets judged though that bias. Inconvenient or contradictory facts can thus be ignored or pushed aside when one desires something else more than being factually accurat

Like you conclusions that you desire to be factually accurate. Do you desire to be factually accurate, or do you desire to feel that you're factually accurate?

I’ll ask the other unanswered question here again. What biological desire or need is fed by being factually accurate? Why would biological creatures like yourself desire to be factually accurate? Is that a near universal desire, or just a particular desire of yours?

Quote:No, that's not even a remotely applicable analogy. You're comparing how people potentially deal with rationalizing the conclusions of mutually exclusive beliefs with the violation of trust. There is no cognitive dissonance to be had in your example. That is so stupid and utterly besides the point, I'm almost at a loss for words


Of course there isn’t any cognitive dissonance to be had in my example, that was the point. Parents disowning their children for being gay, atheist, getting pregnant, dating a black guy, etc…. are not good examples of cognitive dissonance. There no actual reality a parent has to deny to start to despise or hate their children for engaging in behavior they don’t approve of, or are disgusted by.

When dealing with examples of cognitive dissonance it’s perhaps best not to use moral quandaries, which at best would tend to be ambiguous, as to where the cognitive dissonance fits in.

Quote:? If you're growing up in such a household, being exposed to opinions of your parents and their hate fueled congregations, you're going to do everything in your power to hide that fact. This is what leads to horrible self-repression, clinical depression, and a statistically much higher rate of suicide among gay teenagers in very religiously antagonistic environments. This is what causes gay people in these environments to deny themselves their whole lives, and adopt that hatred as self loathing (provided that escape is not an option). This is what gets gay pastors to walk up to the pulpit and preach hatred on Sunday, then hire a gay prostitute on Monday; because they cannot express themselves otherwise, and they hate themselves for being themselves.

Again another ambiguous example of cognitive dissonance.

Quote:See above. Motivated reasoning, purposeful ignorance, personal bias, presupposition, and plain old denial are all tools used to defending preferred conclusions from refutation and conflicting information.

You listed series of evolutionary factors, that serve as impediments to deciphering whats true. Velvet on the other hands believes, that this can’t be, because then we’d get eaten by tigers. His lack of imagination can’t see how biases, that impede us from recognizing what’s true, can contribute to survival and reproduction.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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07-11-2016, 02:48 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(07-11-2016 02:24 PM)Velvet Wrote:  And I will take all your refusals to acknowledge what its very clearly explained to you, alongside with all your passive-aggressive bullshit to indicate that you are an idiot.

No I've clearly explained myself to you on several occasions, you're the one that refuses to acknowledges this.

You can't seem to acknowledge, that if we take two individuals, that we're attempting to correct, to show that their views are false. Cognitive dissonance would be an impediment here, rather than a benefit. It would be easier to convince someone they are mistaken, if they didn't suffer from it.

Do you disagree with this? Or are you just going to weasel out of responding by claiming the question is irrelevant?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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