Why people need God for morality
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
02-11-2016, 10:02 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 09:40 AM)Impulse Wrote:  What is moral is simply that which contributes to benefiting our species. Out of that, comes social agreement about what is good for our species. Evidence of this is in the fact that not every society has the same views on what is moral vs. immoral.

No, its not, the claim you can show me that a certain produces x benefit, yet this statement would not be synonymous with a moral statement. Unless I have an real obligation, a real responsibility to act according to what produces x benefit, in your consequentialist moral framework here, morality is not being implied.

Moral beliefs through and through are not beliefs about about societies particular preference. Societies don't tend to see themselves as arbiters of whats right and wrong, rather they appeal to some transcendent moral order, the archaic framework of our moral language.


(02-11-2016 09:17 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Not "I" or "you", but society.

No, its "I". Lets say the overwhelming majority of a particular society deems homosexuality as immoral. Would you then say yes, it's immoral. Or would you hold to your individuals moral beliefs, and claim that it's not immoral, regardless of it being in opposition to the popular vote.


Quote:Honestly it surprises me that, as long as you have been here, you aren't aware of the atheist view on this subject.

No, it tends to be incoherent gooblygook.

Quote:God doesn't exist.

So you believe.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-11-2016, 10:21 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 09:55 AM)Velvet Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 09:17 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think atheists tend not to understand why morality doesn't exist without God.

To rephrase the argument differently morality doesn't exist without an objective moral order. Absent of this, our entire moral framework, moral language, ideas of moral responsibilities and duties, turn to rubbish.

Without such a moral order, I have no real moral responsibilities, or duties, or obligations. If you were to accuse me of doing something immoral, and best it would translate to merely that my my actions offends your palette, akin to telling me you don't like my choice of wardrobe.





Just some video that can sort some of your misconceptions about the atheist take on morality, many of us ponder about that, we just think God is not only not necessary, but also doesn't himself offers an answer for objective morality.

Well said! Love Sam Harris.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-11-2016, 10:29 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 09:55 AM)Velvet Wrote:  Just some video that can sort some of your misconceptions about the atheist take on morality, many of us ponder about that, we just think God is not only not necessary, but also doesn't himself offers an answer for objective morality.

Yes Sam Harris, the guy that can't seem to understand why you can't derive an ought from an is.

You'd had to presuppose a God/Designer of some sort for objective morality to exist.

A reality in which Objective Morality exist, is a reality akin to that of a narrative, a story, itself, endowed with moral direction, purpose etc.. You'd be selling us on a reality that appears remarkably designed, and at best you might go on arguing for this, without ever actually mentioning who the author is.

If Objective Morality exists, than some sort of God exists. An argument for objective morality, is just an argument for design, like irreducible complexity.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-11-2016, 10:32 AM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2016 11:03 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 09:17 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-02-2010 09:32 PM)AnthongRedbeard Wrote:  I saw the video posted, and had some of my own thoughts to share...

I know some extremely logical smart people who can't get over the idea of morality existing without of God. We continually try pointing to evidence, but it's pointless because the obstacle is also very personal.

If someone is able to lead a good and moral life without God, what does it say about the person who feels that God is required to live by those same standards? When it becomes obvious that "Maybe you need religion to keep you from raping and murdering others, but I don't." It's not just a debate it's a matter of personal character. Think of the scenario of the person who goes to Christianity because they think their slate gets wiped clean and they get to start over. If they ever admitted that morality was a choice and not church they would have to re-own the responsibility of their actions.

just some food for thought. I find that atheists are very rational people who try to explain things to theists in very rational and logical terms that are completely ignored because there is an emotional barrier that filters out whatever they need to feel safe and happy.

I think atheists tend not to understand why morality doesn't exist without God.

To rephrase the argument differently morality doesn't exist without an objective moral order. Absent of this, our entire moral framework, moral language, ideas of moral responsibilities and duties, turn to rubbish.

Without such a moral order, I have no real moral responsibilities, or duties, or obligations. If you were to accuse me of doing something immoral, and best it would translate to merely that my my actions offends your palette, akin to telling me you don't like my choice of wardrobe.

Moral language, discourse, beliefs, are based on a variety of archaic and religious presuppositions, such an intrinsic moral order, that we routinely take as a given. For religious people this might be okay, but for atheists it can't be. To continue with talking about morality with out taking this account, amounts to speaking gooblygook.

Totally false. (More generalizations about your imaginary "atheists")
There is no such thing as "objective" morality, and moral systems are often FAR FAR different from each other.
If you think not, then LEARN about how the Far Eastern societies developed FAR different moral systems (in Japan and China and Korea) than the West, and what was valued and practiced.
Stop with the idiotic nonsense from Fundamentalism, Tomato, already, and the drivel you learned in your 2 month PhD program.
The VERY SAME (objective) act, can be subjectively judged to be moral or immoral, depending on how the circumstance is perceived ... that's about as subjective as it can get.
Morality (human moral codes) arose in human society to promote survival. No gods needed. You REALLY need to take Anthropology 101 ... which I assume they don't offer at your fake "prestigious" university. Laugh out load



Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post
02-11-2016, 10:34 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 09:17 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think atheists tend not to understand why morality doesn't exist without God.

To rephrase the argument differently morality doesn't exist without an objective moral order. Absent of this, our entire moral framework, moral language, ideas of moral responsibilities and duties, turn to rubbish.

Without such a moral order, I have no real moral responsibilities, or duties, or obligations. If you were to accuse me of doing something immoral, and best it would translate to merely that my my actions offends your palette, akin to telling me you don't like my choice of wardrobe.

Moral language, discourse, beliefs, are based on a variety of archaic and religious presuppositions, such an intrinsic moral order, that we routinely take as a given. For religious people this might be okay, but for atheists it can't be. To continue with talking about morality with out taking this account, amounts to speaking gooblygook.

Why do you feel so dependent on some sorta objective moral order? Morality is superfluous at best and counterproductive at worst. Would you behave any different if you realized this? If not then why let it distract you as some sort of recurring mental masturbation? If so then why do you feel the need for some external code created by others in order to keep you from being an asshole? Your own conscience ain't good enough for you?

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like GirlyMan's post
02-11-2016, 10:35 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 10:02 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, its not, the claim you can show me that a certain produces x benefit, yet this statement would not be synonymous with a moral statement. Unless I have an real obligation, a real responsibility to act according to what produces x benefit, in your consequentialist moral framework here, morality is not being implied.
There is no moral obligation or responsibility in any objective sense. There are, however, societal consequences as well as (and more importantly) survival consequences.

(02-11-2016 10:02 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Moral beliefs through and through are not beliefs about about societies particular preference. Societies don't tend to see themselves as arbiters of whats right and wrong, rather they appeal to some transcendent moral order, the archaic framework of our moral language.
Morality is not based on beliefs at all and actually, yes, societies are arbiters of right and wrong. Have you not heard of laws and trials? Consider

(02-11-2016 10:02 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, its "I". Lets say the overwhelming majority of a particular society deems homosexuality as immoral. Would you then say yes, it's immoral. Or would you hold to your individuals moral beliefs, and claim that it's not immoral, regardless of it being in opposition to the popular vote.
I would say that specific society deems it to be immoral.

(02-11-2016 10:02 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, it tends to be incoherent gooblygook.
No, you just don't understand it apparently.

(02-11-2016 10:02 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:God doesn't exist.
So you believe.
There is no more evidence for believing a god exists than there is for believing in Santa.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Impulse's post
02-11-2016, 10:56 AM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2016 11:03 AM by Velvet.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
How do we go from ''I fell that we should have some sort of objective morality otherwise we can't tell people what is wrong'' directly to ''almighty magician who tells me what to do and if I disagree he will put me in torture chamber forever'' ?

And how we know this is wrong then? It wouldn't be the first time Yahweh orders someone to kill.

--"It destroyed her ability to discern the wrongness of her act," he said.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
-P.C. Hodgell - Seeker’s Mask - Kirien
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-11-2016, 10:57 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 09:17 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think atheists tend not to understand why morality doesn't exist without God.

I think theists tend not to understand that until they prove that their god exists, they are simply talking about their imaginary friend.

(02-11-2016 09:17 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  To rephrase the argument differently morality doesn't exist without an objective moral order. Absent of this, our entire moral framework, moral language, ideas of moral responsibilities and duties, turn to rubbish.

An objective moral order would apply to a god as well as man. Otherwise it is subjective.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Fatbaldhobbit's post
02-11-2016, 11:05 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
This basically.




That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
-P.C. Hodgell - Seeker’s Mask - Kirien
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Velvet's post
02-11-2016, 11:33 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
Morals come from the same place as any "god" you care to mention.


Someone made it up.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes onlinebiker's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: