Why people need God for morality
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02-11-2016, 11:46 AM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2016 01:01 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 10:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You'd had* to presuppose a God/Designer of some sort for objective morality to exist.

* have
No you wouldn't. Wishful thinking. Your bad habit. You are too unimaginative to cook up a different explanation. There are many possible. There is no evidence for any of them, and a LOT against the notion ... but since you have NO KNOWLEDGE of other cultures, you would have no clue.

Quote:A reality in which Objective Morality exist*, is a reality akin to that of a narrative, a story, itself, endowed with moral direction, purpose etc.. You'd be selling us on a reality that appears remarkably designed, and at best you might go on arguing for this, without ever actually mentioning who the author is.

*exists
Wrong on many fronts. YOU made up the narrative, and you endow it with your (mistaken) assumptions. None of them are demonstrably true. You wish they were. That which promotes survival is not "remarkably designed". It just is/does. There is no author .. just evolution.

Quote:If Objective Morality exists, than some sort of God exists. An argument for objective morality, is just an argument for design, like irreducible complexity.

It doesn't and he doesn't. There is no fail-safe proof of a god, (or faith would not be needed).

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02-11-2016, 11:57 AM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 09:17 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-02-2010 09:32 PM)AnthongRedbeard Wrote:  I saw the video posted, and had some of my own thoughts to share...

I know some extremely logical smart people who can't get over the idea of morality existing without of God. We continually try pointing to evidence, but it's pointless because the obstacle is also very personal.

If someone is able to lead a good and moral life without God, what does it say about the person who feels that God is required to live by those same standards? When it becomes obvious that "Maybe you need religion to keep you from raping and murdering others, but I don't." It's not just a debate it's a matter of personal character. Think of the scenario of the person who goes to Christianity because they think their slate gets wiped clean and they get to start over. If they ever admitted that morality was a choice and not church they would have to re-own the responsibility of their actions.

just some food for thought. I find that atheists are very rational people who try to explain things to theists in very rational and logical terms that are completely ignored because there is an emotional barrier that filters out whatever they need to feel safe and happy.

I think atheists tend not to understand why morality doesn't exist without God.

To rephrase the argument differently morality doesn't exist without an objective moral order. Absent of this, our entire moral framework, moral language, ideas of moral responsibilities and duties, turn to rubbish.

Without such a moral order, I have no real moral responsibilities, or duties, or obligations. If you were to accuse me of doing something immoral, and best it would translate to merely that my my actions offends your palette, akin to telling me you don't like my choice of wardrobe.

Moral language, discourse, beliefs, are based on a variety of archaic and religious presuppositions, such an intrinsic moral order, that we routinely take as a given. For religious people this might be okay, but for atheists it can't be. To continue with talking about morality with out taking this account, amounts to speaking gooblygook.

In other words: You are a sociopath who needs god to keep him from doing evil to other humans. Please dont give up reading your little book! Its safer that way...for the rest of us.

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02-11-2016, 12:02 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 09:17 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-02-2010 09:32 PM)AnthongRedbeard Wrote:  I saw the video posted, and had some of my own thoughts to share...

I know some extremely logical smart people who can't get over the idea of morality existing without of God. We continually try pointing to evidence, but it's pointless because the obstacle is also very personal.

If someone is able to lead a good and moral life without God, what does it say about the person who feels that God is required to live by those same standards? When it becomes obvious that "Maybe you need religion to keep you from raping and murdering others, but I don't." It's not just a debate it's a matter of personal character. Think of the scenario of the person who goes to Christianity because they think their slate gets wiped clean and they get to start over. If they ever admitted that morality was a choice and not church they would have to re-own the responsibility of their actions.

just some food for thought. I find that atheists are very rational people who try to explain things to theists in very rational and logical terms that are completely ignored because there is an emotional barrier that filters out whatever they need to feel safe and happy.

I think atheists tend not to understand why morality doesn't exist without God.

To rephrase the argument differently morality doesn't exist without an objective moral order. Absent of this, our entire moral framework, moral language, ideas of moral responsibilities and duties, turn to rubbish.

Without such a moral order, I have no real moral responsibilities, or duties, or obligations. If you were to accuse me of doing something immoral, and best it would translate to merely that my my actions offends your palette, akin to telling me you don't like my choice of wardrobe.

Moral language, discourse, beliefs, are based on a variety of archaic and religious presuppositions, such an intrinsic moral order, that we routinely take as a given. For religious people this might be okay, but for atheists it can't be. To continue with talking about morality with out taking this account, amounts to speaking gooblygook.

(02-11-2016 09:17 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think atheists tend not to understand why morality doesn't exist without God.

Which god are we talking about?

Adad, Adapa, Adrammelech, Aeon, Agasaya, Aglibol, Ahriman, Ahura Mazda, Ahurani, Ai-ada, Al-Lat, Aja, Aka, Alalu, Al-Lat, Amm, Al-Uzza (El-'Ozza or Han-Uzzai), An, Anahita, Anath (Anat), Anatu, Anbay, Anshar, Anu, Anunitu, An-Zu, Apsu, Aqhat, Ararat, Arinna, Asherali, Ashnan, Ashtoreth, Ashur, Astarte, Atar, Athirat, Athtart, Attis, Aya, Baal (Bel), Baalat (Ba'Alat), Baau, Basamum, Beelsamin, Belit-Seri, Beruth, Borak, Broxa, Caelestis, Cassios, Lebanon, Antilebanon, and Brathy, Chaos, Chemosh, Cotys, Cybele, Daena, Daevas, Dagon, Damkina, Dazimus, Derketo, Dhat-Badan, Dilmun, Dumuzi (Du'uzu), Duttur, Ea, El, Endukugga, Enki, Enlil, Ennugi, Eriskegal, Ereshkigal (Allatu), Eshara, Eshmun, Firanak, Fravashi, Gatamdug, Genea, Genos, Gestinanna, Gula, Hadad, Hannahanna, Hatti, Hea, Hiribi, The Houri, Humban, Innana, Ishkur, Ishtar, Ithm, Jamshid or Jamshyd, Jehovah, Jesus, Kabta, Kadi, Kamrusepas, Ki (Kiki), Kingu, Kolpia, Kothar-u-Khasis, Lahar, Marduk, Mari, Meni, Merodach, Misor, Moloch, Mot, Mushdama, Mylitta, Naamah, Nabu (Nebo), Nairyosangha, Nammu, Namtaru, Nanna, Nebo, Nergal, Nidaba, Ninhursag or Nintu, Ninlil, Ninsar, Nintur, Ninurta, Pa, Qadshu, Rapithwin, Resheph (Mikal or Mekal), Rimmon, Sadarnuna, Shahar, Shalim, Shamish, Shapshu, Sheger, Sin, Siris (Sirah), Taautos, Tammuz, Tanit, Taru, Tasimmet, Telipinu, Tiamat, Tishtrya, Tsehub, Utnapishtim, Utu, Wurusemu, Yam, Yarih (Yarikh), Yima, Zaba, Zababa, Zam, Zanahary (Zanaharibe), Zarpandit, Zarathustra, Zatavu, Zazavavindrano, Ziusudra, Zu (Imdugud), Zurvan

And that's just a small list. How do you know your god is the most moral of the other gods?

What if you just think your god is the most moral god going but someone else says their god is more moral?

Waddoyado then, go to war and battle it out? This is generally the way it's been done. That's why Western countries have a christian god. Might makes right, you know. Flex Argue Beat_stick

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02-11-2016, 12:48 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 12:02 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Which god are we talking about?

A generic one, a God of some sort, regardless of what name you want to call him, or whatever additional stuff you might have to say about this God.

Quote:And that's just a small list. How do you know your god is the most moral of the other gods?

It wouldn't be a question of whether God is the most moral or not, it would be a question of whether life has an innate moral direction. Endowed with moral purpose, the sort of presupposition needed for objective morality to exist. Whether were looking at a life that has a moral direction, has a purpose, or in other words designed. Regardless of whatever else may be said about it's creator.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-11-2016, 12:51 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 11:46 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  * have
No you wouldn't. Wishful thinking. Your bad habit. You are too unimaginative to cook up a different explanation. There are many possible. There is no evidence for any of them, and a LOT against the notion ... but since you have NO KNOWLEDGE of other cultures, you would have no clue.

The day in which you can effectively and convincingly argue that objective morality exists, is the day in which you convinced the world that God exists. It's akin to arguing that we're a part of story, and the process of doing so, you convinced the world that there's an author.

Every apologist would pack their bag, in regards to arguing for the existence of God, because the argument for objective morality, is all they would need.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-11-2016, 01:02 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 10:57 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  An objective moral order would apply to a god as well as man. Otherwise it is subjective.

Thats like saying if a man designs a watch to tell time, then this means that the mans purpose is to tell time as well.

A reality, that posses objective morality as part of it's nature, would be one that would be clearly designed, far from a purposeless creation. And it doesn't follow that whatever aim woven into it, is applicable to it's creator as well.

If you're trying to peddle objective morality, you'd be the equivalent of someone peddling irreducible complexity. But more of a dope, because typically individuals peddling irreducible complexity, understand that their arguing for the existence of God, unlike the other.

It's a good thing most folks here don't tend to argue for the existence of objective morality, because I'd have a field day with revealing that you're just a closeted theist.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-11-2016, 01:03 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 12:48 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 12:02 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Which god are we talking about?

A generic one, a God of some sort, regardless of what name you want to call him, or whatever additional stuff you might have to say about this God.

Quote:And that's just a small list. How do you know your god is the most moral of the other gods?

It wouldn't be a question of whether God is the most moral or not, it would be a question of whether life has an innate moral direction. Endowed with moral purpose, the sort of presupposition needed for objective morality to exist. Whether were looking at a life that has a moral direction, has a purpose, or in other words designed. Regardless of whatever else may be said about it's creator.

Life has no "moral direction". The purpose of life is life. (Your "sentences" are not sentences. You should get an education some day).

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02-11-2016, 01:05 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 12:48 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 12:02 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Which god are we talking about?

A generic one, a God of some sort, regardless of what name you want to call him, or whatever additional stuff you might have to say about this God.
Total cop out... how can you follow the moral guidelines of any god if you aren't talking about one specific one in order to know which guidelines? Consider

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02-11-2016, 01:06 PM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2016 01:17 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 12:51 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  The day in which you can effectively and convincingly argue that objective morality exists, is the day in which you convinced the world that God exists. It's akin to arguing that we're a part of story, and the process of doing so, you convinced the world that there's an author.

Every apologist would pack their bag, in regards to arguing for the existence of God, because the argument for objective morality, is all they would need.

Wrong. It would just be more presuppositionist nonsense. It's never gonna happen. There are countless moral systems, and countless gods. Care to match them up ? It's all meaningless drivel, and not even the beginning of an argument for anything. I'm no expert of what apologists do (a fake profession, if ever there was one), but there are NO PROOFS for god. Or are you telling me you people don't need faith ? If you have proof of something, you need no faith.

And BTW, it's interesting you seem to be totally unaware of Christian thinkers like Tillich and Barth or even the great devil himself, Kant, and what they say about this matter. Tillich and Barth never said there was an objective morality, and neither did the great Jewish philosophers, such as Buber. You should think about going to a real school some day, (and that way you can learn how to write in English) as well as intelligent posts.
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02-11-2016, 01:11 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 11:57 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  In other words: You are a sociopath who needs god to keep him from doing evil to other humans. Please dont give up reading your little book! Its safer that way...for the rest of us.

No, believing that morality doesn't exist, doesn't necessarily mean that my behavior would radically change. A monkey seems to behave just fine, absent of any moral beliefs.

What it would mean is that when people such as yourself try and say this action is immoral, or evil, that you're really just speaking gooblygook. At best you'd just be stating a series of personal preferences, expressing your distaste, the way in which you might express distaste in a person's wardrobe. That it's evil, immoral, because it makes you feel lousy, makes you feel queasy inside.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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