Why people need God for morality
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02-11-2016, 01:16 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 01:06 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Wrong. It would just be more presuppositionist nonsense. It's never gonna happen. There are countless moral systems, and countless gods. Care to match them up ? It's all meaningless drivel, and not even the beginning of an argument for anything. I'm no expert of what apologists do (a fake profession, if ever there was one), but there are NO PROOFS for god. Or are you telling me you people don't need faith ? If you have proof of something, you need no faith.


I have no idea what your rambling about.

When you say it's all meaningless drivel, are you referring to both the countless gods, and countless moral systems? Are the arguments for objective morality meaningless drivel as well? You lack a belief in objective morality as well correct?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-11-2016, 01:19 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 01:16 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 01:06 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Wrong. It would just be more presuppositionist nonsense. It's never gonna happen. There are countless moral systems, and countless gods. Care to match them up ? It's all meaningless drivel, and not even the beginning of an argument for anything. I'm no expert of what apologists do (a fake profession, if ever there was one), but there are NO PROOFS for god. Or are you telling me you people don't need faith ? If you have proof of something, you need no faith.


I have no idea what your* rambling about.

When you say it's all meaningless drivel, are you referring to both the countless gods, and countless moral systems? Are the arguments for objective morality meaningless drivel as well? You lack a belief in objective morality as well correct?

*you're
I'm not surprised. Weeping

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02-11-2016, 01:25 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 01:11 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  What it would mean is that when people such as yourself try and say this action is immoral, or evil, that you're really just speaking gooblygook.

Why would someone who didn't believe in morality judge an action is immoral in the first place?

#sigh
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02-11-2016, 01:29 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 01:05 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Total cop out... how can you follow the moral guidelines of any god if you aren't talking about one specific one in order to know which guidelines? Consider

The question here presupposes which moral guideline to follow.

It's the question of whether I ought to be following a moral guideline to begun with. Whether moral obligations and duties exist, more so that what those obligations and duties specifically are.

Before I can seek to live a good and moral life, and what that means, I'd have to believe that I'm directed to live such a life to begin with, that I have obligations to pursue, and seek it.

Absent of such a belief, the question of what moral guideline I should follow becomes irrelevant, because the answer is none.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-11-2016, 01:30 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 01:25 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Why would someone who didn't believe in morality judge an action is immoral in the first place?

Because they're inconsistent and contradictory.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-11-2016, 01:36 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 01:29 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  The question here presupposes which moral guideline to follow.
No it doesn't. Before you can decide whether you should follow moral guidelines from a god, one needs to know what those guidelines are specifically. Otherwise, how do you know what you're deciding on. Personally, I don't need to know because I don't believe there is such a god. But YOU do since you believe.

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02-11-2016, 02:01 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 01:36 PM)Impulse Wrote:  No it doesn't. Before you can decide whether you should follow moral guidelines from a god, one needs to know what those guidelines are specifically. Otherwise, how do you know what you're deciding on. Personally, I don't need to know because I don't believe there is such a god. But YOU do since you believe.

Young children seem to recognize just fine that stealing is wrong, hurting innocent people is wrong, absent of developing some elaborate moral philosophy, or guideline. In fact those of us who might have spent some time thinking of our own moral philosophy, are more or less just producing a set of rationalizations after the fact.

People seem to know at some level, that they should be kind rather than cruel, love others, care for the downtrodden, be fair, don't harm the innocent, etc..even if they often fail to do so.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-11-2016, 02:11 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(20-02-2010 09:32 PM)AnthongRedbeard Wrote:  I saw the video posted, and had some of my own thoughts to share...

I know some extremely logical smart people who can't get over the idea of morality existing without of God. We continually try pointing to evidence, but it's pointless because the obstacle is also very personal.

If someone is able to lead a good and moral life without God, what does it say about the person who feels that God is required to live by those same standards? When it becomes obvious that "Maybe you need religion to keep you from raping and murdering others, but I don't." It's not just a debate it's a matter of personal character. Think of the scenario of the person who goes to Christianity because they think their slate gets wiped clean and they get to start over. If they ever admitted that morality was a choice and not church they would have to re-own the responsibility of their actions.

just some food for thought. I find that atheists are very rational people who try to explain things to theists in very rational and logical terms that are completely ignored because there is an emotional barrier that filters out whatever they need to feel safe and happy.

I think the main reason people think this is that they were taught it at a young age and everyone around them thinks the same and they have just accepted it without much thought. For centuries the choice has always been believe in God and be moral or be atheist and immoral. Religion has had a monopoly on morality for so long that the thought of there being any rational, fact oriented objective moral code is seen as impossible. That's too bad for the world. I hope it changes in the future or I don't think we have much longer as a technological civilized (?) species.

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02-11-2016, 02:17 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 02:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Young children seem to recognize just fine that stealing is wrong, hurting innocent people is wrong ,...

This hasn't been my experience. Young children are the most selfish creatures imaginable. They think the world revolves around them, they want whatever they can get, and they have no problem hurting anyone, innocent or not, who prevents them from getting what they want. They have to be taught proper behavior, and any parent knows this. It is definitely not "natural" or instinctive.
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02-11-2016, 02:21 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 02:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 01:36 PM)Impulse Wrote:  No it doesn't. Before you can decide whether you should follow moral guidelines from a god, one needs to know what those guidelines are specifically. Otherwise, how do you know what you're deciding on. Personally, I don't need to know because I don't believe there is such a god. But YOU do since you believe.

Young children seem to recognize just fine that stealing is wrong, hurting innocent people is wrong, absent of developing some elaborate moral philosophy, or guideline.

No, actually they don't. They need to be taught these things.

Quote:In fact those of us who might have spent some time thinking of our own moral philosophy, are more or less just producing a set of rationalizations after the fact.

Why after the fact? One can thing hypothetically before the fact.

Quote:People seem to know at some level, that they should be kind rather than cruel, love others, care for the downtrodden, be fair, don't harm the innocent, etc..even if they often fail to do so.

Because their cultures have taught them that.

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