Why people need God for morality
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02-11-2016, 02:22 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 02:17 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  This hasn't been my experience. Young children are the most selfish creatures imaginable. They think the world revolves around them, they want whatever they can get, and they have no problem hurting anyone, innocent or not, who prevents them from getting what they want. They have to be taught proper behavior, and any parent knows this. It is definitely not "natural" or instinctive.


Even thieves know that stealing is wrong. Just because a child knows that certain things are wrong, that doesn't necessarily indicate that they abstain from engaging in such behaviors.

There's a variety of studies, that as early as we can gauge them, children have a variety of intuitive moral beliefs, an intuitive sense of immoral and immoral behaviors.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-11-2016, 02:25 PM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2016 02:30 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 02:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  Because their cultures have taught them that.

Judging that a variety of studies show a core morality, independent of culture, indicates that there's more to those beliefs, than just cultural influences. It would be more accurate to appeal to Darwinian factors, than cultural influences. That a variety of our beliefs are product of selected behaviors and inclinations, that the beliefs produced by this are our means of attempting to articulate these factors.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-11-2016, 02:35 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 02:25 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 02:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  Because their cultures have taught them that.

Judging that a variety of studies show a core morality, independent of culture, indicates that there's more to those beliefs, than just cultural influences. It would be more accurate to appeal to Darwinian factors, than cultural influences. That a variety of our beliefs are product of selected behaviors and inclinations, that the beliefs produced by this are our means of attempting to articulate these factors.

What studies have taken children (who have been completely isolated since birth) and tested their intuitive moral judgement?
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02-11-2016, 02:37 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 01:30 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 01:25 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Why would someone who didn't believe in morality judge an action is immoral in the first place?

Because they're inconsistent and contradictory.

I assume you're not implying atheists are generally inconsistent. 'cause that would be immoral.

#sigh
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02-11-2016, 02:38 PM
Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 02:35 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 02:25 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Judging that a variety of studies show a core morality, independent of culture, indicates that there's more to those beliefs, than just cultural influences. It would be more accurate to appeal to Darwinian factors, than cultural influences. That a variety of our beliefs are product of selected behaviors and inclinations, that the beliefs produced by this are our means of attempting to articulate these factors.

What studies have taken children (who have been completely isolated since birth) and tested their intuitive moral judgement?


All the evidence points to a core morality, which shouldn't be surprising to those of us who hold to a Darwinian perspective. Cross cultures studies, showing a similar reaction across cultures in relationship to a variety of moral dilemmas, indicate also that a variety of our moral beliefs, can't be reduced to cultural learning.

Im not sure why this seems to come as a shock, to those who accept the ToE.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-11-2016, 02:40 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 02:35 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 02:25 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Judging that a variety of studies show a core morality, independent of culture, indicates that there's more to those beliefs, than just cultural influences. It would be more accurate to appeal to Darwinian factors, than cultural influences. That a variety of our beliefs are product of selected behaviors and inclinations, that the beliefs produced by this are our means of attempting to articulate these factors.

What studies have taken children (who have been completely isolated since birth) and tested their intuitive moral judgement?

That would be a big zero. He's talking out of his ass as usual. Note that he conveniently forgot to cite any such studies.
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02-11-2016, 02:44 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 02:38 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 02:35 PM)pablo Wrote:  What studies have taken children (who have been completely isolated since birth) and tested their intuitive moral judgement?


All the evidence points to a core morality, which shouldn't be surprising to those of us who hold to a Darwinian perspective. Cross cultures studies, showing a similar reaction across cultures in relationship to a variety of moral dilemmas, indicate also that a variety of our moral beliefs, can't be reduced to cultural learning.


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Of course some morals will cross cultures because they apply to humans. The Golden Rule will apply globally because it makes sense, not because it is a divine, god-given, outside, objective influence.

The only way you can prove outside objective morality, is with control subjects who have not been exposed to any cultural teachings or rules.
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02-11-2016, 02:46 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 02:22 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Even thieves know that stealing is wrong.

Adult thieves, yes, because they've been taught that it's wrong. Have you ever watched a young child in a grocery store? They will grab candy bars and whatever else they want off the shelves, and their parents have to take it away from them and put it back -- and then the child throws a tantrum. They don't even know what "stealing" is. Their entire mental process is I see, I want, I take. There's no morality there at all until it's imposed on them by authority figures.
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02-11-2016, 02:46 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
Do you have ANY other hobbies other than banging on about this same fucking topic over and over. We get it, you don't have any evidence for a God so this is your fall back. It's gotten bloody tedious bruv.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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02-11-2016, 02:57 PM
Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 02:46 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 02:22 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Even thieves know that stealing is wrong.

Adult thieves, yes, because they've been taught that it's wrong. Have you ever watched a young child in a grocery store? They will grab candy bars and whatever else they want off the shelves, and their parents have to take it away from them and put it back -- and then the child throws a tantrum. They don't even know what "stealing" is. Their entire mental process is I see, I want, I take. There's no morality there at all until it's imposed on them by authority figures.


Let's ask a simple question does one have to be taught to be empathetic? Of course not, empathy is a part of our biological makeup.

Empathy can play a large part in our moral inclinations, tending to incline you to believe that something is wrong, based on the sensations elicited, more than what you culture teaches you.

A mother's bond with their infant may have a lot to do with Darwinian factors, as well as the intuitive belief that it's wrong for her to abandon her child.

We see moral behaviors in a variety of animals, clearly in those instances Darwinian factors have a lot to do with this, yet when it comes to human moral behaviors, and the beliefs used to articulate them, you want to exclude this, and reduce it to cultural learning.






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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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