Why people need God for morality
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02-11-2016, 04:11 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 02:25 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 02:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  Because their cultures have taught them that.

Judging that a variety of studies show a core morality, independent of culture, indicates that there's more to those beliefs, than just cultural influences. It would be more accurate to appeal to Darwinian factors, than cultural influences. That a variety of our beliefs are product of selected behaviors and inclinations, that the beliefs produced by this are our means of attempting to articulate these factors.

Rodents and some animals also have a sense of fairness. Do they have "morality" ?
Even if children have an innate sense of fairness, EVOLUTION , (not the gods) put it there, you idiot. You have no such studies that you claim to have, No references. Just your usual bullshit.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-11-2016, 04:11 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 03:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 02:46 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Do you have ANY other hobbies other than banging on about this same fucking topic over and over. We get it, you don't have any evidence for a God so this is your fall back. It's gotten bloody tedious bruv.


The ridiculousness of atheism, displayed multiple times in places like this, is all the evidence one would need to believe God exists.

The alternative to a belief in God, seems to be a belief in a series of absurdities.

Really Tomato ? You said you were here to learn. You learned THAT here ?
Fucking liar.
Apparently the moral code you claim is innate, does not exist in you.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-11-2016, 04:14 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 03:38 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Yet you can take any codified rendition of moral laws and guidelines, past or present and find a great deal of commonalities irregardless of culture or age.

That's right. They promote SURVIVAL OF THE GROUP, as Anthropology teaches, you idiot. It's not from the gods, it EVOLVED to promote survival.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-11-2016, 04:14 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 03:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  The ridiculousness of atheism, displayed multiple times in places like this, is all the evidence one would need to believe God exists.

The alternative to a belief in God, seems to be a belief in a series of absurdities.

This is not a rational thing to say, even if all atheists in the world were objectively ridiculous on every single think they say that would still have no weight on if God does or doesn't exist, the existence or not-existence of God its not a consequence of atheist opinions about him.

No, the alternative to a belief in god is not to hold a belief in God.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
-P.C. Hodgell - Seeker’s Mask - Kirien
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02-11-2016, 04:15 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 03:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  The ridiculousness of atheism, displayed multiple times in places like this, is all the evidence one would need to believe God exists.

The alternative to a belief in God, seems to be a belief in a series of absurdities.

If only we could have all the brains like you do. But we're just big dumb dumbs. Well, I'm sure you'll have a ball in your ivory tower when the rest of us burn in eternal agony. I'm sure it brings you great joy knowing torture awaits all that oppose you. Oh! If only your God didn't make us so stupid!Weeping Woah is me. Woah is me.

If only others could have been as lucky as you.

I've seen the error of my ways Tomasia. Your gental hand has lifted me from the ashes of discontent. Hurry we must tell the world!

Tomaisa KNOWS ALL!

Hurry we must tell every in
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[edit]


That you not only know the specific god that exists. But exactly what he wants, feels, and thinks.

Please grace me with your wisdom. What method did you use to rule out all those religions interpretations of gods? I must learn how your method for ruling out gods is superior then mine. All those people faiths must be untrue? Surely they can't all be right? I mean..you couldn't possible be just be believing the god you were raised to believe in? No. That's impossible.

Like I said we're just big ol' dumb dumbs.


If you couldn't tell i was being sarcastic. But the question was real.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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02-11-2016, 04:17 PM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2016 04:22 PM by dancefortwo.)
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 03:38 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 03:19 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Morality is just a fashion statement. It changes constantly.

Yet you can take any codified rendition of moral laws and guidelines, past or present and find a great deal of commonalities irregardless of culture or age.

While there is a great deal of differences in regards to certain moral beliefs, there also a great deal of commonality as well.



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Not always. The South American Aztecs practices human sacrifice. Most people around the world today would consider this murder. The Greeks and Romans thought nothing of allowing deformed babies to die in the sun. There is no ideal of what morality or a god is.

It's a curious thing that often cultures living in heavily forested areas worship many gods. In desert cultures there is tends to be a singular god or fewer gods. Ancient people reflected the world they inhabited and projected an imaginary god-creature to answer their questions.

But initially morality came from evolution and protecting ones gene pool, it's just that people prettied it up with all sorts of folklore and storytelling.

There is no god, honey. It's all human fabrication.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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02-11-2016, 04:20 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
Even If we were to concede you that there's a being who is the source of a objective morality, that's necessarily NOT one kind of being that doesn't know you shouldn't punish finite crimes with infinite punishment.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
-P.C. Hodgell - Seeker’s Mask - Kirien
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02-11-2016, 04:26 PM
Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 03:57 PM)Velvet Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 03:47 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Any lurker can see that the atheists here spend a great deal more time figuring out what they don't believe in, more so than what they do believe in. Hence why the position of "lacking a belief", is so popular. When it comes to dealing with what folks here believe, more so than what they don't believe in, what you get is a sea of confusion, and absurdities. The cloister in places like this to find comfort in their bewildered state.

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This can be what happens to someone who doesn't embrace the first pack of lies they had access to and keep constantly learning new things to refine their world view and their methods to deal with beliefs.

But I can see why someone like you couldn't possibly be confused, when you just accept to believe whatever you want to believe, without looking any further if it is actually truth, then it may be really easy to seem certain of himself, I agree.

EDIT: Btw I have a personal question to you Tomasia, don't you realize is intellectually dishonest to relentlessly propose and defend Deistic arguments to try to support a Theist position that was embraced on faith, when you don't have any argument or way to jump from a Deistic position to a Theist one?
No I think it's intellectually dishonest to interpret my arguments here as supporting or defending theism. Just because I'm a theist, doesn't mean I'm particularly interested in persuading a bunch of atheists on the internet to become theist, which is just as much a fools errand.

Im more interested in seeing if atheist can be consistent, than in persuading anyone of theism.

I come with one particular hypothesis that atheists are just confused, and plod and questions to see how well that holds true, and whether or not it's merely a product of my confirmation , or actually true. It's easier dealing with one biases, when not enveloped in a vacuum. When you're not participating for the sake of getting likes.





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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-11-2016, 04:36 PM
RE: Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 01:02 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 10:57 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  An objective moral order would apply to a god as well as man. Otherwise it is subjective.

Thats like saying if a man designs a watch to tell time, then this means that the mans purpose is to tell time as well.

Quote: Objective:
Existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.
dictionary

Quote:Subjective:
Existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective).
dictionary

Your god would be subject to objective morals. By definition.



(02-11-2016 01:02 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  A reality, that posses objective morality as part of it's nature, would be one that would be clearly designed, far from a purposeless creation. And it doesn't follow that whatever aim woven into it, is applicable to it's creator as well.

Then it is subjective. Again, by the very definitions.

Out of curiosity, how many times do you have to repeat falsehoods before you believe them?

(02-11-2016 01:02 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If you're trying to peddle objective morality, you'd be the equivalent of someone peddling irreducible complexity.

Don't strawman. We are pointing out why there is NOT an objective morality.

(02-11-2016 01:02 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  But more of a dope, because typically individuals peddling irreducible complexity, understand that their arguing for the existence of God, unlike the other.

You men "they're" as in "they are". Watch the grammar if you're going to insult others' intelligence.

(02-11-2016 01:02 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's a good thing most folks here don't tend to argue for the existence of objective morality, because I'd have a field day with revealing that you're just a closeted theist.

And once again you fall back into your old tactic of telling us what we think.

We pointed out why there was not an objective morality.
You strawmanned it into saying that we were arguing for objective morality.
You now claim that we're closeted theists.

Maybe you keep beating this dead horse because you're (see...) trying to prop up your own faith.

Maybe deep down inside you know that there is no god.
That there is no creator of the universe who cares about you.
That you're wasting your time praying to your own delusions.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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02-11-2016, 04:41 PM
Why people need God for morality
(02-11-2016 04:36 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(02-11-2016 01:02 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Thats like saying if a man designs a watch to tell time, then this means that the mans purpose is to tell time as well.

Quote: Objective:
Existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.
dictionary

Quote:Subjective:
Existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective).
dictionary

Your god would be subject to objective morals. By definition.



(02-11-2016 01:02 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  A reality, that posses objective morality as part of it's nature, would be one that would be clearly designed, far from a purposeless creation. And it doesn't follow that whatever aim woven into it, is applicable to it's creator as well.

Then it is subjective. Again, by the very definitions.

Out of curiosity, how many times do you have to repeat falsehoods before you believe them?

(02-11-2016 01:02 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If you're trying to peddle objective morality, you'd be the equivalent of someone peddling irreducible complexity.

Don't strawman. We are pointing out why there is NOT an objective morality.

(02-11-2016 01:02 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  But more of a dope, because typically individuals peddling irreducible complexity, understand that their arguing for the existence of God, unlike the other.

You men "they're" as in "they are". Watch the grammar if you're going to insult others' intelligence.

(02-11-2016 01:02 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's a good thing most folks here don't tend to argue for the existence of objective morality, because I'd have a field day with revealing that you're just a closeted theist.

And once again you fall back into your old tactic of telling us what we think.

We pointed out why there was not an objective morality.
You strawmanned it into saying that we were arguing for objective morality.
You now claim that we're closeted theists.

Maybe you keep beating this dead horse because you're (see...) trying to prop up your own faith.

Maybe deep down inside you know that there is no god.
That there is no creator of the universe who cares about you.
That you're wasting your time praying to your own delusions.


Lol you clearly weren't paying attention. No one was arguing that objective morality doesn't exist besides perhaps you. They were arguing that existence of objective morality wouldn't indicate that God exists.

They were also arguing that moral beliefs are purely a product of culture, ignoring the Darwinian aspects, that would account for core morality, the common moral views irrespective of culture time and place.




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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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